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Hey, hey. Hello, and welcome to this next episode of Commercial Real Estate Talk with Steven Arne, where we have what we hope to be compelling, interesting, and informative conversations with leaders, iconic figures in the commercial real estate industry. And I am super excited about today's guest, Terrence Tale, TALEN, head of Talen Capital Group. But before we get to, uh, the show, let me bring in, introduce my co-host, Arnie Gar, ahead of All-Star Group. Hey, Arnie, how you doing today? Hey, how you doing, Steve? Hot day out today. Doing Great. Little bit of a heat wave, huh? Yep. Yep. Let's hope it spills over to the commercial real estate market. That's True. Yeah. Well only get better. Great event. Last week your All-Star lending conference was great. Well attended. Yeah. Lot of activity. I think the mood is definitely seems to be improving. There's more activity, people, were out there looking for lenders, and that's what we provide. So, uh, it's perfect for that. Yeah, that, that was a good one. Feeling Like, you know, the 10 years are inching their way down, hopefully a little bit, so, well, you know, uh, tell us a little bit about All Star Group. Sure. Well, all Star Group was, uh, formed in 1995, uh, as a commercial real estate firm. Uh, we do loan brokerage origination, and, but mostly we're known for is our events. We do commercial real estate events, uh, that are all interactive in nature. One of the things that we're known for is the Loan Makers Forum, where we bring a bunch of lenders to the event. They tell everybody what they can do, and our attendees can present loans to them live, and they compete for the loan. But there's plenty of networking, plenty of stuff that we do, but that's, that's one of the things we're most known for. Great, great. And, and many of you in the audience know Rent tv, our 25, 20 6-year-old news media, uh, company for the commercial real estate industry. We put on five conferences a year, uh, conferences a year, Arizona's coming up October 9th. We are super excited about it. Uh, we also do this podcast and we own, uh, and created, uh, the review this platform where you're watching these videos. Uh, so with that said, another piece of business, Arne, I think, uh, we should talk about our sponsors who make the show calls. Sure. With all, with All by all means, let's go. They make it happen. Great companies, uh, that you should definitely call, try to do business with. Tell 'em you heard, heard about them from the show. Uh, I know that will appreciate it. And the first one's been a great, uh, sponsor of ours for a long time, and that is commercial real estate inspectors in Southern California. Their skilled inspectors provide critically needed inspection information in easily understood terms, as well as inexpensive and simple solutions whenever possible. Like commercial real estate inspectors help you protect your deal. The inspection business that is huge right now, you know, obviously in the whole LA area for a number of reasons. Uh, so let them help you protect your deal. Commercial real estate inspectors, Tiffany Simington, uh, caller and book your inspection today. 8 1 8 9 5 7 4 6 5 4. It's on the screen. 8 1 8 9 5 7 4 6 5 4. Who's next? Arnie. Our Next is Fidelity Mortgage Lenders. Fidelity Mortgage is a private lending company specializing in commercial real estate, founded in 1971 by Chuck Shon. It's known for its unique terms, fast funding, no prepayment penalty, and long-term fixed rates. Call Uncle Chuck, SA is known or John McLean at 807 5 2 9 5 3 3. That's 807 5 2 9 5 3 3 Fidelity Mortgage Lenders. Next up Steve. Yeah, on another track. Another, you know, interesting, uh, company that's, uh, uh, sponsoring the show is Chase Partners, another longtime client of ours, uh, headed by David Parker, one of Southern California's leading investors and developers of industrial properties throughout Southern California for over 30 years. Uh, now they're sponsoring the show. They want to get the message out about their updated strategy to focus on underperforming industrial and retail properties and other distressed properties with non-performing debt. So if you're in a situation, wanna look for an exit, want to get, you know, some assistance with it or some advice, call David Parker. If you're an owner, lender, or broker that needs a fast decision and a fast close on your property, contact Chase partners. Here's their email, david@chasepartners.com. david@chasepartners.com. All right, Arnie, Uh, I think we're ready for our guest. Let's bring him in. Terrence, Terry Tallen, head of Talent Capital Group. Welcome, Terry. Welcome to the show. Welcome. Hey, Steven. Arnie, it's great to be with you again and, uh, I'm looking forward to the show today. Yeah, It's great to see you again. Terry's been a long time since there no Cal events when you were attend. So great to see you and looking forward to catching up on all those stuff you've got, going with a lot, lot to cover. So I'm gonna get right into it. Uh, why, to start, why don't you give us an overview of Talent Capital Group, you know, the properties you own, geographies, sectors you're in, and, uh, size, and then we'll, uh, we'll go from there. Sure. So, uh, we're a, uh, you know, a vertically integrated mixed use, uh, retail and residential, uh, investment and development organization. Uh, we do business, uh, you know, we, we say on a national basis, but our primary focus is the West Coast. Uh, so up, all up and down the West Coast. Uh, we also have a number of rich interests in the Midwest, predominantly in Indiana and Ohio. And, uh, I lived in Florida for a number of years of a great affection for the state of Florida. So we try to do things back there when we can. But right now we're really focused on the, uh, on the West Coast and some of the, you know, redevelopment deals that we have, uh, here in California, Retail. So mainly retail. Mainly retail, how Many projects? Okay. Like, like a lot of us, you know, in that space, you have certain projects that are probably better as residential. You know, the, uh, the state has a number of, uh, objectives and missives to, you know, create more housing. Uh, so we have some certain projects like our Marina landing project that we, you'll see, you see on the screen behind me here, uh, that we'll get into. That's a, it it's really a fantastic coastal, uh, development site, but it's better suited now, uh, with the way things have filled in around it over the last, say, 18 years to be a residential site now. And so currently you have a dozen projects, something like that. Roughly, uh, how many projects do you currently own or, and involved in? We we're at about about a dozen projects right now. Gotcha. Excellent. Alright. Hey, let's find out about you get away from the real estate a little bit. Tell us a little bit about where your upbringing, uh, of course we know you played football. Tell us a little bit about that, and then of course, Lee Corso. Well, sure. And you know, it's a, it's timely that you mentioned my old coach. Uh, he, he turned 90, uh, two weeks ago, uh, actually two weeks ago, uh, yesterday. And, uh, we're Gonna show some old pictures while we're talking here. Some of the pictures we provided. So you guys, viewers definitely check these out. Yeah. But go ahead. So it's timely. You know, coach is, uh, 90 years old. He is re retiring. He'll have his last game on August the 30th, the big Ohio State, uh, Texas game. So we'll all be tuned in for that. Uh, I was with him and had breakfast with him in May when I was down in Florida for our former Hoy Institute annual event. And, uh, coach is all excited and I said, coach, whatcha gonna do Now you're, you're 90 and you're retiring. He says, Terry, I'm gonna retire now. And we were, uh, we were at a, we were at a restaurant and people were coming up to him and, you know, he was 89 at the time. And, uh, he was saying, coach, you know, this is fantastic. We know you're turning 90. And, and his wonderful personality, he said, well, you know, the only guy that wants to be 90, it's that guy that's 89. Yeah, that's right. But tell us about what, where you grew up and, and what, uh, obviously you, you played at Indiana and, uh, how did football become commercial real estate? Well, uh, I'm from, uh, Hamilton, Ohio, which is a, uh, you know, relatively small town located between, uh, Cincinnati and Dayton. Uh, my father was an entrepreneur. He owned a regional, uh, plumbing and mechanical contracting, uh, uh, company. And, uh, so he was an entrepreneur, lifelong entrepreneur. He went to Xavier University back when they had a football team. And, uh, my mom was a, was a wonderful homemaker and, uh, had great parents. Um, I, uh, was fortunate enough to, uh, uh, go to, uh, Hamilton Baden High School, which is named after Stephen Stephen t Baden. And so there's real estate themes throughout my whole life. Uh, Stephen t Baden was the, uh, Catholic pioneer priest that put the, um, real estate deal together at the University of Notre Dame. Wow. Wow. So there was a Stephen t Baden Hall. We had a rich, uh, legacy with Notre Dame and, uh, uh, we were a small Catholic school, about 800 students. And my, uh, high school football coach with a fellow by the name of Terry Malone. Terry Malone, uh, at one point in time was the winningest football coach in the history of Ohio high school football. Wow. He had 346 wins, some odd losses, and now he's a, you know, since been surpassed. But for, uh, a couple of decades I think he was winning his football coach in the history of Ohio high school football, which is a big deal. Um, he was a tough guy, tough Irishman. And, uh, we had very good teams, and it was a very good role model, uh, and, you know, taught us toughness and, uh, self-reliance and resiliency. And, uh, so it was a very good upbringing. Uh, you know, we had the college prep, uh, business, uh, education. And, um, I enjoyed playing, uh, you know, many sports in high school, but football was the one that stood out, stood out the most to me. It fit my mentality well, and I, I think as we go through this, and I think with some of your other, you know, some of your other guests that have, have played football, uh, I think that's a great, uh, precursor for, you know, the ups and downs and the resiliency that you have to have in, uh, this business that we all love. Gives You a structure, it gives you the ability to know how to lose and how to win It Sure. Does. Uh, I go from A small school to Indiana. How'd that? Uh, Well, Well, uh, my, my senior year in, uh, at, at Hamilton Baden, I, I was, uh, Allstate offensive guard, and I was captain of all stars at Middle linebackers. So the, I was being recruited for both positions and, uh, a lot of the schools tried to trick me into playing offensive guard. And I do not have the mentality of an offensive guard. Well, you had the number 62, I had Number, and they kept trying to plug me into that position with that number. I, I, I'd forget how to block sometimes, but I never forgot how to tackle. So, yeah, That just, So, um, I, I was heavily recruited. Um, we had looks from, uh, Ohio State, Michigan, Notre Dame, Miami, Florida, uh, Purdue, Wisconsin, um, in Indiana. And there was something about Lee Corso, the way that he recruited, uh, the opportunity Yeah. To play earlier in Indiana. Of course, you'd figure you might play earlier in Indiana than you would at, uh, Ohio State or Michigan. Uh, those two schools wanted me to play guard. They were very upfront about wanting me to play guard, and I, I really wasn't interested in that. Um, and Coach Corso was wonderful. And my, my father being a, a businessman, uh, he encouraged me to go to Indiana because of the, all the schools, including Michigan at the time, Indiana had a better business school. Hmm. You know, which is now, of course, the Kelly School of Business, which is one of the, you know, the top undergraduate, uh, finance and real estate programs in the country. Very good. Right. So then right into real estate after college, it seemed like, uh, pretty young. Uh, uh, how did that, what was the, what got business from your entrepreneurial background? How, how'd you end up with real estate? Well, so, you know, you, it, it, it's hard to come right out of the right out of the ch from college and, and go into that kind of a business. As, you know, it's a very competitive business, and you have to, you know, um, pack your backpack, so to speak, before you start climbing up the mountain. So, uh, uh, good Way to put it. Indiana was, was heavily recruited in a number of different in industries and including, uh, consumer goods, you know, with Proctor and Gamble's, you know, proximity to, uh, IU being, you know, based in Cincinnati, their world headquarters, a number of other, you know, fortune 50 companies recruited Indiana heavily. And we had a very, even back then, you know, in the early eighties, we had a very good placement program. Right. So, um, I, uh, I had a number of injuries my senior year. It, it was, it was interesting. I, I was awarded the United Press International's defensive player of the week, uh, in October of, uh, 1980 for our homecoming victory against, uh, Wisconsin. But in the same game, I sprained my ankle. Ah, so I missed, I missed several games as a result of that. And I was, I was pretty much hobbling around the balance of the season. So I, I wasn't drafted. Uh, so I went out as a free agent with the Kansas City Chiefs, and, um, I got hurt again in camp. Uh, so as much as I wanted to go on and play in the NFL, um, you know, life, uh, the destiny came in another direction. It broke my heart. It was really what I always wanted to do. But you realize too, the average career is only only three years. So I figured it was time to get on with things. And, uh, I was fortunate enough to, uh, get a job with, uh, at the time, which was, uh, Pepsi, Pepsi Cola Bottling Company, uh, which had a, a, an opening down in Florida. So I was, uh, I went down there on a, a, a vacation on a spring break, uh, uh, vacation. And, uh, Lee Rose, who was the head basketball coach at the University of South Florida, he also coached at NC State back with, uh, cornbread Maxwell when he went to the, uh, fi Final Four. And, uh, coached in the NBA after that. Uh, his son, Mike Rose, who's a great guy, was one of the young linebackers that we mentored. So we had a, a good relationship with their, you know, one, like one of these family type relationships. So Coach Rose set me up with some headhunters down in the Tampa area. Uh, I interviewed with George Steinbrenner's company, which was, uh, quite an experience. Yeah. Um, but ultimately ended up getting a job in the executive training program with a Pepsi Cola bottling group. That's funny. You know, it right down there, right near there is Bradenton was where Tropic was. And I ended up with them right around the same time. 'cause I think we're about the same age. Mm-hmm. Uh, 'cause I graduated Florida State at 1980, so, uh, yeah. So it right around the same time, same, same area. We, we, we could have very well run into each other down there. We may have Good training For the real estate business, I'm sure, for what, what was, uh, ahead of you? Uh, yes. It, it, Pepsi was a, you know, a very professional company, very, uh, you know, a a kind of a political company because of the size, but it was back in the day, if you remember the Roger Enrico's famous, uh, the other guy, blink Dad and the Pepsi generation and all those things. So it was a great experience and, you know, high level marketing. So what led, how, how did, how did, how did you make the leap to the real estate industry then? What, what, what, uh, turns out of that? Well, this was a time I was, uh, at that point I'd moved from Orlando, Florida to Melbourne, Florida to run a, uh, regional food service operation. So I was promoted into operations management after I won their national sales contest. And, um, I saw all these buildings being built, and, uh, I, we, I studied that. And also I saw, you know, I'd see somebody were driving the better cars, and I'd ask em what they, what they did for a living. And most of 'em were in real estate. Yeah. You know, that's, It was one of those things, well, if he could do that, I could do that, you know, kind of thing. So I, uh, I got my, uh, real estate broker's license at, at, at night, and, you know, and, and did that while I was still working at Pepsi. And then I, uh, I eventually, uh, worked through that, the situation, and, uh, interviewed and, uh, got a job with Coldwell Banker and there, uh, you know, as a real estate broker at the time, which was another great training platform. Sure. Uh, CBRE and JLL, uh, they really have outstanding training PLA platforms. And, you know, back then, I don't know what the program was, was CBRE now, but, uh, in the day, then they would pay you a, a nominal salary to get you through that first year. Mm-hmm. And then, but if you made a deal or made a commission, then you, you know, you were, you were off the salary, but then after a year, you would, you'd go on, uh, on straight commission. So, um, I enjoyed that. I enjoyed the process. I have lifelong friends. Uh, my great friend Kevin Kavanaugh, uh, who actually worked with me at Burnham Pacific, which we'll get into at some point in time. Yeah. Uh, he and I met there, you know, back in, uh, 1984. And we're actually gonna be in Florida together in a, in a, in a few weeks here. Great. So tell us about your first real estate deal. The first big deal that kind of took you to the point where you say, you know what, this is where I'm staying and this is where I'm gonna go. Well, the, uh, the, I think the first really big thing that happened was the, uh, there were a couple of big jobs that I had. I came out from Florida with the Alexander Hagen reit, uh, based down in Manhattan Beach. Right. Um, guys remember that? Alexander Hagen? Oh, yeah. A very, very shrewd, very smart developer. Uh, so we were, you know, I went from, uh, Manhattan Beach and Sepulveda. Right. Wasn't there shopping center right there, right. No. Wow. PC H, yeah, PCH and Sepulveda. It was the old, uh, you know, it's, it's the old Bullocks, uh, shopping center. Yeah. Uh, In there. Yeah. The Shake Haggs were very sharp people. Uh, yeah. Uh, so I was hired, uh, away from, uh, Florida and came out to run their earnout. Uh, so a fellow that hired me is someone you, I'm sure you know, Fred Broing, you know, who was the, uh, CEO of Center Cal for many years. I think Fred's doing something else now. But Fred, uh, brought me out from Florida, and I would, I came out to affect their earnout. So it was a, it was a neat experience for me. I was about 34 then 35, and to come out and, uh, be the lead with Fred on affecting the Earnout, which we, uh, created, uh, additional $50 million in operating partnership units of stock for the predecessors of the reit, which pre predominantly the, uh, Hagen family, the, the Khe family, and, uh, a few others. Ed Krasnov, um, you probably have talked with Jeff Kreek, who's a great friend, so over federal. Yeah. We're federal. So his, his father was our CFO and Right. And of a mentor to me. So we've, you know, Jeff and I have had that, uh, relationship for, you know, several decades as well. So we, we did the earn out, we affected the earnout on, you know, some key properties, the Baldwin Hills, Crenshaw Mall, many people know, right? Yes. Media City Center, uh, the Empire Center in Fontana. So these were all huge projects. I mean, Fontana was a million square foot power center. Right. Uh, nobody could ever build that today. But, uh, so we did that. And, uh, you know, as, as this business can be, uh, kind of rough and tumble sometimes, the day the earnout was over and the stock was assured, they fired me. They told me I was too expensive. Too expensive, said I was too expensive. They just made 50 million. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Okay. But, but you fell in love with California because you stayed here. I did. What's, I mean, you know, uh, it's a great state, great people. And, uh, you know, through that process, I was introduced, uh, to the Watt family, uh, actually by Fred Bruning as a, as a kindness to me, and understanding that, you know, what happened there. And, uh, went to work with, uh, you know, with Ray Watt, Scott Watt, Jim McGinn, and all, all fellows that, you know, and, you know, Ray Watt was one of the great, uh, multi-product developers we've ever had here in California. Um, he was an elegant man, a gentleman, and I really enjoyed my, my time there. We did a number of note noteworthy projects. And, uh, during that process, uh, uh, David Martin got together with Malin Burnham, and, uh, you know, Mayland's still alive, uh, well, about 95 now, sharp as attack. And, uh, I see Maylin every so often because I'm on the board of the, uh, uh, university of San Diego's Burnham Moores, uh, center for Real Estate Studies, uh, run by staff Caris, who's a great, great, uh, executive director. Staff is great. And, um, so they hired me away from Watt to basically run, uh, redevelopment and leasing, you know, for a REIT at the time that had about, uh, 43 properties. Wow. Through that leadership there, that it was a very good executive team. We had a very good leasing team. Uh, we took the portfolio from, uh, uh, 43 properties to 115 properties and a billion dollar market cap, you know, and that was back in the late nineties. So that executive team, uh, did a very good job of, uh, of growing the, you know, growing the business. Um, and then when you get to that level, you know, it led to other things. So we had a hostile takeover, uh, attempt from the Schottenstein Company out of, uh, Columbus, Ohio. And J Schottenstein is also an IU grad, a few years older than me, Uhhuh. We didn't know each other at the time. And so the REIT ran down, uh, properties went various different directions. Uh, DDR and Prudential helped, uh, with the, uh, dissemination of the properties. Uh, we were given, you know, I think fairly, uh, reasonable, you know, severance packages. And so at that point in time, I said it was time to be an entrepreneur. So this was the lead up, I'd say, uh, RNA to my first big deal. But the, you know, the experience, the relationships, uh, and then of course the, you know, we were well paid there. I, I would say for the time. And, well, It's, it's Always a journey. You gotta gotta go through a journey to get there. And then that, that's great. Good to, good. Your Answer of one big deal was really like a whole bunch combined. Yeah. So much stuff. Yeah. No, But now this is the perfect lead in, because now you shift over to development. But now looking back on your development history, is there one major development project that you built, that you created that stands out that you're most proud of? Well, I think there's the first one, and then there is, there's another one. So, uh, the, the, the, to answer your question directly, the big one, uh, was one we took quite a bit of risk on, and it's, uh, one of my favorites. So it's, it's in the background here, and you can see the, uh, marina Walmart. Ah, so this was, uh, down on the Monterey Peninsula, you know, just a few, few miles north of Pebble Beach. Uh, the city of Marina had granted, uh, some pretty significant entitlements to the Fort Ord military base to finally redevelop the base, you know, uh, tens of thousands of acres out there. And, uh, they had prevailing wage because it was a city deal. And, uh, a real estate broker brought me a dark 92,000 square foot Kmart that was an REO with Wachovia. Ah, and I saw that, you know, what was going on down at the Dunes, knowing they had prevailing wage, which, you know, is, is you, and your, your, uh, your listeners know Ed's about 35% of the cost, uh, you know, to a deal, right? I thought, well, we can, we can do really well here because we're buying this at a discount. 'cause we're buying it out of REO. And my instincts were that, you know, retail is kinda like Noah's Ark. You know, if you see Walmart in a market, you're gonna see Target. If you see Home Depot, you're gonna see Lowe's, you see TJ Maxx, you're gonna see Ross. Right. So I thought we'd be the, maybe the lower cost alternative, uh, to that project, but that we could go head to head with and compete with them because of, you know, all the various exclusive use provisions and things that, you know, come on these centers. So, um, and I'm not saying anything outta school when I go through the numbers here, but we, we bought the property for about four and a half million dollars. I, I funded the 100% of the equity, got a very, uh, high loan on it, so it was some risky, so there were some sleepless nights. Right. Uh, but, uh, ended up at the end of the day, we went and got, uh, some entitlements for the building to open it up, you know, it was, was, it's interesting, that building was only zoned for the use as a Kmart. Nothing else. It could only be a Kmart. Wow. That's Fair. That's kind of narrow. It's talking about spot zoning. Yeah. Really. So we went back to the, the, the city leadership. We said, you guys, you can't do this. You can't zone a property for one specific name tenant. Exactly. You know, there's a Kmart, there's a Walmart, there's a, there's an H Mart, there's this mart, there's that Mar. So, um, we went through a process and we got the building. Um, uh, we bought it dark. We didn't have anybody in tow. Uh, we went and got it, uh, got the entitlements, went out to market, and we're fortunate enough to be able to negotiate a 20 year ground lease with Walmart. Hmm. Perfect. Uh, from then at that point, uh, Walmart, you know, we, we, it was a ground lease. They do very few ground leases. So they, they came back to us and said, look, we don't really wanna have a ground lease. We would, uh, be very appreciative if you, you would sell this to us. And we said we were gonna have to have a very, you know, aggressive cap rate. Yeah. And we had very good relationship and still do with Walmart. So at the end of the day, we, in round numbers, we, um, we sold them an extra small parcel, uh, and we, uh, we made about $15 million on the deal. So that was, that was the first, you know, big deal like that. And it was, we were in and out of it in less than two years. So the IRR was, was through the roof, and, uh, really launched us to go and do, to do other things. So I was, you know, we worked very hard at it. We were strategic in our approach to it. You know, it's luck involved in all these things. Right. You gotta get paid for the risk too. Right. At the time it was, Well, yeah, the, The loan, you know, everything, you know, the, the, the zoning, right. I mean, you had to deal with a lot. So that's a great story. Go to the flip side, Arnie, tell Oh, no, no. So, so now you tell us about a good win. Tell us about the, the one you wish you never did. You know, the, the, the, let's put it this way, the deals have been pretty good. Some of the partners haven't, So it's the partners, not the real estate. Right. You gotta be careful with both, let's put it that way. Yeah. Okay. So, I mean, I, I know you said you, you, you're mostly in California, Indiana, of course, we understand why Indiana, why Florida? Uh, uh, I lived there for about 10 years before I came out here. Okay. So, I, I had the good for Fortune of working for, uh, Mel Sr. And the Assembler company, which, you know, they were, they are, and were the number one retail developer in the state of Florida. They were the Publix developer that took the Publix grocery store chain into the, into, uh, the state of Georgia did very well. Uh, Mel was a wonderful man. Uh, he passed away a few years ago. Uh, his sons run the company now. Right. But, uh, he was a very good role model, uh, very energetic high energy guy. You know, he was a, a two or three time ambassador in the, in both Bush administrations. And he really gave us a, you know, a picture to the world, you know, being down there in South Tampa and, uh, St. Petersburg, That, that's the area of Florida that you concentrate in there. Right. We, we like, we like that area. Yeah. Now, are you actively in the market for new, uh, properties to buy new properties or partner up on deals? Well, we're keeping our eyes and ears open. People bring us things every so often, but I don't have any active deals in Florida right now. Okay. So when you look at properties, do you look based on strategy or opportunity? Well, you know, it's, it's, it's, there's, there's two sides of it. I think it's both because opportunity comes with your relationship. So we're very relationship oriented. So sometimes your relationships will bring you into a deal. Okay. And those are the best kind, especially if it's a tenant. Uh, we have some, uh, quick serve restaurants that have asked us to be their preferred developer. So we're out, uh, you know, looking for sites for them. And, you know, they're, they're generally entitlement, uh, related things to create, you know, the value on the front end and unlock the opportunity. So that's, uh, why they come to us. But those are smaller deals. Um, you know, the, the more institutional deals, that's a whole different ballgame. Right? Right. You, you're going out, you're in a beauty contest. And, uh, you know, may the, may the best, uh, woman or man win in that, that type of a situation. Um, we don't ne necessarily chase a lot of deals that are actively marketed. Um, we're, we're, I think, a little more, um, or a little less risk averse than, you know, some of the institutions. So it More like, you know about the property, you've been tracking it for a while. Yeah. Find the right time to situation to grab it. Yes. And af, you know, and after doing this and, you know, have been involved with, you know, you know, over 400 shopping centers over the years, you, you know, you kind of know the ones that stand out and say, if this one ever falls, or if there's an issue here, we're gonna, we're gonna go after it. So, um, it happens that way. So there's a strategy to it, but it's also, you know, very much relationship oriented. As you guys know, this is a big relationship business. I mean, sometimes you might be tracking a property, but you haven't seen a while. All of a sudden something comes across your desk about it and you're like, oh, you know? Right. Or something Can't pass up on that one. Yeah, that's true. That's exactly right. But Then, so then leading to when you're interested in a deal, you're looking at it, at the end of the day, when you gotta sign your name on that line and put your, you know, equity up there and put stuff at risk, how do you green light it? Are you looking at I-R-R-R-O-E cash flow go? I mean, do you do all the different scenarios and then just after you look at all the numbers, just No, we're not, no. How, how do you make that decision? Well, you know, it, it, it depends on if it's something I'm doing by myself, you know, as the, the, you know, the sole managing member, uh, or the sole member. Uh, there's other deals that, you know, most of 'em, you have investors or partners. So we go through it with our, with our partners and see what they say. But I, you know, I remain the managing member, so I ultimately make the call. Yeah. Uh, if you're doing an institutional deal, you know, you, you only have so much say, right. You're going to be part of a committee, but you're all, you're gonna be able to be overruled. Uh, so then you're, you're collaborating and you're working to collaborate like that. And of course, those, those types of deals are absolutely IRR driven, risk driven, you know, et cetera. Right. And some of the, some of the better deals I've done, uh, one of is our Napa Tahoe project up in, uh, Fairfield, California, fronting Costco. I mean, that, that's myself. And, uh, and another person, uh, Richard Heller, who's since deceased, but his son, Greg, is my partner now. Mm-hmm. And, uh, we each put in half the money. We each did half of the work. We each shared half the profits. Very, very simple old fashioned deal, but there's very little debt. There's two parcels, no debt on one parcel, very little on the other one. And, uh, cash flowed for 20 years. And it was a, it was a nice situation, but it was a very, you know, kind of a fundamental, kind of an old fashioned deal. Right. So the numbers look pretty good before you went in. So do you ever come across where the numbers don't look at, but you have a strong feeling about the location and the future of it, and The numbers. Does your gut, does your gut, uh, get you, or do you Yeah. Typical go by the numbers? Yeah. The, the, the gut, the gut, the gut gets you, and one of the things that we do to eliminate risk, or not eliminate, but reduce risk, or at least make us think we're reducing risk and sleep better at night, is that, you know, from these various positions I've had over the years, we, we, we know all of the tenants or most of the tenants and their brokers, and have those relationships. So when we go into a deal, and it wasn't necessarily the case on the Walmart deal in Marina, but on most other deal, I've got a pretty good idea, or I've spoken with, you know, a handful of retailers that I think are going to be there and have a pretty good idea of what they'll pay. And so we, we, we mitigate things in that manner, knowing that there's gonna be a value creation play with it. That's why we, that's why we buy more distressed properties, more value add properties, uh, because we, we get that, that kind of an up with it, you know, by being able to create value shortly thereafter with a, with a tenant. Right. Terry, the Walmart deal aside, how do you exit deals? I mean, that one just came to you and it was a perfect opportunity for you, but do you know when, why, and how, uh, uh, most of your, your developments, when's the time to exit? Well, there's, you know, that's a great question. And there's, there's several different categories to it. Like recently, we, uh, we sold the, uh, mar we, I'm sorry, we sold the, uh, Rossmore Shopping Center in Walnut Creek. Mm-hmm. We were in that deal for 12 years. It was, uh, sold in April to a terrific group out of, uh, out of South Florida, a fund. And, uh, it was a 60 million plus, uh, sales price. And, uh, we bought it in the mid thirties, uh, and, uh, you know, in, uh, 2012. And, um, it was a long slog, but we, we took a 107,000 square foot, you know, well located community center in a great market, um, increased the GLA by about, uh, 20%, uh, created new pads. And, uh, then we exited that when the capital partner wanted to exit. Uh, you know, and they know this, and the truth be told, we would've like to stay in a little bit longer, but when you're in an institutional deal, you're, you're gonna be pretty well, you're gonna be asked, and then you're gonna be told. Right. That's, and so, but we all know that. We all know that. So you Want a good other deals with them, but most likely, right. So you want to keep That's right. That's right. Now, like the deal I mentioned to you up in the Napa Tahoe project up in Fairfield, uh, we'll never sell that one. So there's some of them we don't want to exit, but one that I think is a round peg and a round hole for the question that you ask. Uh, we bought, uh, up in Citrus Heights, California, we bought a, uh, vacant Patelco bank branch building. It's a smaller deal, but it, it was a, you know, it was a, it was a good return on the deal. Right. And, uh, so we bought a VA vacant, vacant BA bank branch. And during the process, we, we asked our leasing broker who was, uh, Carol Ian, who's a very, very good broker, actually, outstanding leasing broker. And, um, we said, go and explore the market. So she found that, sees candies in that market, uh, had three different operations under three different roofs. Yeah. She, my goodness. We have a 10,000 square foot bank branch on two stories, like who's ever gonna lease that? Great. Got an idea, but it, great corner, great corner. Uh, it's in front of a Merone Geier Center, so in front of one of, you know, Brad Geier centers, which, and they always do do a great job. So we put it under contract and through the, uh, due diligence process, we were able to execute a lease with seizes candies to do a, what we call their flagship store. And so they put all three, uh, properties, all three entities under one roof. So it was a regular retail store. It was, uh, business to business store, and then their back, you know, re backroom regional offices. Wow. And, uh, turned out great for them. It turned out great for us. And so in that case, we knew to exit because we saw, you know, the rising interest rates. Um, our loan was due at the time, which would've further compounded the interest rate, uh, concerns. So we elected to sell it. Uh, if we would've sold it a year and a half earlier, we probably would've sold it at a, at a four and a half cap. Um, we were planning on a four and a half cap, and we, we sold it a, at a, at a, at a five three cap. Ah. So, uh, we didn't, we didn't do as well as we hoped, but we still did. We still did very, we still did well on it for the side. Let's get the Absolute peak. Yeah. But we, but we could have been, it could have been worse. So then we knew it was time to go. 'cause you could see the, you know, the, the, the cap rate environment eroding because of the, you know, the increased interest rates. Right. Excellent. Well, this totally leads into the next question, which is how are your deals structured? I think during these answers, you've mentioned a couple different ways you come up with the equity. So I'm curious if there's a way people can invest with you, you know, the public could come in as partners with you, but also on the le on the lending side. Do you deal with traditional banks? What's your typical LTV? You know, how, how do you structure these deals? Yeah, I mean, we welcome like-minded investors. Uh, we, uh, we, on our Indianapolis deal, we have, uh, we have three other investors on the, on that project, which is the Irvington, the redevelopment of the Irvington Plaza in East Indianapolis. Um, long blighted site that we're, uh, I mean, we're basically buying it for land value. And, uh, it's really, it's very good real estate. Been, been very neglected. Uh, and so we've, uh, rezoned it to allow for about half the site to be high density residential. Uh, we've got a, uh, blue line, uh, you know, uh, transportation stop being put out in front of it. It's along the Penn Sea Trail, which is a very active, uh, commuter trail in, in Indianapolis. And, uh, so that's, that, that, that kind of hits that, that level of it. But we, we go with traditional debt. You know, sometimes we work with our, our friend and your friend Gary Moser on, uh, you know, getting, uh, with IPA getting, uh, debt for us. Uh, he's done a great job over the years. Um, we work with certain groups that are, you know, got a triple net, uh, finance groups on the single tenant deals that we do. Mm-hmm. The other interest rate's a little bit higher, but they generally, uh, take up basically the equity. So we're paying a 10 per percent interest rate. Um, you know, we, we put some of our own money into get an equal 10 pref, but, uh, there's no other equity. So we, we do better on the backend if we can exit fast enough. Right. Um, so those types of situations, we just refinanced a property with Chase Bank, so, you know, very traditional lender. Gotcha. Um, we also work with Kevin Randalls with CBRE up in, uh, Sacramento. And he helps us with, uh, you know, some of our refinancing in the, you know, kind of North Bay and, uh, you know, Sacramento areas. Excellent. So we, we do mostly traditional debt. We haven't done any hard money loans or anything like that. Yeah. Well, hard money has its place. I mean, but yeah. You, you don't need to. Um, so tell us now about some of your current projects, recent acquisitions, and what drives you to look in certain areas. I know we touched on, on Florida a little bit, but more concerned about some of the current projects you have, like for example, the one right behind you. Yeah. Scott Valley, of course. Don't forget that. Let's stop. Forget Scotts Valley. That's a deep project. So, so this one, uh, this is the, uh, basically the second phase, the Walmart Center down in Marina, California. Uh, we're working with the city right now to, uh, get, obtain a, a zoning overlay to allow for high density residential. Uh, the site is considered one of the top coastal, um, residential development sites. You can see in the background, you can see the, uh, Monterey Bay. Mm-hmm. We're next to the Marina Public Library. We're next to the Lock Padden park. And I'm Gonna, I'm gonna lay over the photos, you know, the, uh, PDFs that you provided so people see the different maps and everything, so, okay, Good. Thank you. And, um, you know, you've got a, a, a 92,000 square foot division one Walmart with a food pharmacy, and so it, it, it lends itself to a, uh, you know, a neat residential project. We were working, uh, a few years ago before the market changed, uh, with a, a national developer to partner with us to do, uh, 265 apartment units, of which, uh, 20% would be affordable by, uh, by, by regulation. Right. Uh, now it looks more like about an 80 town home project with maybe, uh, you know, 40 or so. Uh, we're gonna beef it up a little bit on the workforce housing on an, on a adjacent parcel. So we're getting a little pushback from certain members of the city there. They know who they are. Uh, most of the community, um, supports us, uh, vastly supports us in changing the zoning to give us the zoning owner for Lay. And we're negotiating a local coastal permit, uh, amendment right now to allow for this second phase to be about, uh, 80 market rate, uh, middle market, I would say also, which is important in, in that market, um, of town homes. Uh, plus, you know, about, uh, 30 units, 30 to 40 units for, for affordable. So we're very excited about that. It's land I've owned for quite some time. That Was my next question. You own the land and you're gonna partner or sell it to the developer? You choose? Well, uh, we, we own the land. I have one, uh, one, uh, I would say minor partner by level of investment, but major partner by level of, uh, skill, intelligent and effort. A young, a young man that's, uh, making his way very strongly in industry. And he wanted to partner up. So we brought him in. And, uh, uh, I'm not sure if we're just gonna do an outright sale, ground lease or joint venture. Most of the people we've been talking to have been joint venture. Yeah. Um, it's also fully in, it's also zoned for hotels. So if anybody seeing this that wants to be by the Monterey Bay that, uh, be interested in that, I don't think we'd use the whole site. It's about six acres. Craig Sullivan, you listening to this? Yeah, there we go. Craig, watch, watch. You probably know somebody wants to put a hotel up there. Well, team, I'll owe you another commission. Oh, yeah. Oh, me, me on that one. That, that's my Okay. You've already, already, and, and we'll, we'll, uh, we'll promote the living daylights out of it, but, uh, so there is an opportunity there to maybe do a mixed use there. I think the, you know, I think the, the, uh, common ground with the city will make it some sort of a mixed use project is they're, you know, they're hunting for more sales tax revenue and TOT tax. Right. Um, but it's a, you know, it's a great community. It's a growing community. If you were to go down and see what they've done on the fort or military base and what Sha Homes and Scott Negre and some of these other people have done down there, it's, it's fantastic. It really is fantastic. What's The income in that circumference? It is a, it is very mo it would be, uh, moderate. I'm, uh, probably about a 85, 90,000 average household income. You still have a, you know, you've been part of that base is a lot of, uh, you know, retirees that are still around from the days back in Fort Ord. Uh, you know, there, there's a new VA hospital there, which, which takes care of those, those wonderful men and women and, um, some new hotels on the Fort Ord military base as well. But when we compete with somebody, there, again, we don't have a prevailing wage. And as you go south from, uh, Fort, or we're just north of Fort Ord, but you go south of Fort Ord, there's a, a huge water deficiency there. And we have ample water to do hotel, retail, multi-family, whatever it might be. I know. It's beautiful area. I know, uh, uh, Jeff Davi, who used to be the, uh, uh, real estate commissioner and his, his, I think his whole family is down there in Monterey. Mm-hmm. They know that whole area. Yeah. Scotts Valley. Gotta go, gotta go to Scotts Valley now. Tell us about that. Okay, well, we'll, we'll move up the coast now to Scotts Valley. There You go. Santa Cruz County. Uh, as I'm sure you guys are aware, as far as Northern California goes, we've got some very, you know, upper scale markets, especially with, you know, places like San Jose, Los Gatos, Palo Alto, seems like that. But, uh, Santa Cruz County has some of the higher apartment rents, uh, in the state. Um, so the city of, uh, Scotts Valley, we, we met these people, uh, at an ICSC conference, uh, that I spoke at, and they came up and, uh, we became acquainted after, after the, the panel. And they asked me to come up and take a look at their project. Um, there's a city manager, uh, mal Lago, and, uh, uh, Derek, Tim, the mayor. And this is a, this city really has, its, its act together. This is great leadership. Uh, they're fun, they're friendly. Uh, and this has been in the worksheet for 28 years. So this group is the one that got it over the goal line. They have, uh, significant funding in place. In fact, we were actually on, on site last week, uh, for a press conference, uh, with, uh, congressman, uh, Jimmy Panetta, who, uh, raised, arranged for a million dollars in federal funding, uh, to kick off the Scotts Valley Town Center On Tuesday afternoon. The city of Scotts Valley celebrated the groundbreaking. The city has secured $1 million in federal funding to help pay for the property, which is money that city leaders say will push the project forward. I'm proud that the United States government was actually able to step up and be a part of it, actually provide federal funding to invest in this project that's really gonna help bring this community together. Uh, so huge momentum. Uh, we're gonna, we'll go out for an RFP, uh, this fall. So my, my role in this center, I'm, I'm not an investor, I'm not an owner, I'm not a partner. Uh, our company has been engaged on two fronts. Uh, one to, uh, run the RFP along the side of Malaga, go the, uh, the city manager. And, uh, then we're also curating and be doing the leasing, um, leasing side of the project also. So we're negotiating with some specialty grocers as the anchor tenant now, you know, some key restaurants, uh, to come in. The reception has been, has been fantastic for this project. It's a, uh, California surplus land ax deal. Uh, so we'll have to have a minimum of 300 residences. And, uh, many of the top developers in the country we've already spoken with. And, and generally is, we're not quite there yet. We wanna give everybody a shot at this, uh, this new town center. Right. Uh, we'll be doing a full blown RFP kicking it off in the fall and, and going into full throttle, uh, in the fourth quarter of this year. Once the, um, the, the new specific plan is completed, which is, well, on its way, What are rental rates up in that market? Where, where do you see rates? Well, I would, you know, I Don't want cut out your brokers, but, you know, in there Retail or at residential? Retail. Oh, I think you'll be in the, I think you'll be in the four to $5 square foot range. Gotcha. Nice. Now, So now we're talking about retail and residential. Where do you see the trends of both retail and multifamily going? Well, you know, it's, we, we live in a very cyclical world, in a very cyclical business. And you know, right now retail leasing is about as hot as it's been in, in many, many years. Supply and demand, you know, where we would say is, you know, on our side of it, where we would say, oh, retail's been underbuilt. Uh, some of the capital markets, uh, folks that don't do a lot of retail, uh, especially the residential guys say it's been under demolished. So, Right, exactly. We're, We're the, uh, we're the great grateful beneficiaries of, uh, product type being under demolished. So, um, you know, it, it's, it's hard to find retail deals right now. Yeah. Uh, the, the, the, the, the primary is that it's something that we're, we've actually started a small fund for, is to go out and buy, uh, dark bank buildings, uh, with drive-throughs on hard corners. Right. Dark mass food, restaurants, and dark banks with drive-throughs. Uh, there's, we won't go into our whole business plan, but, uh, if folks want to invest with it on something like that, they're bite-sized deals. And you might, you know, might get a group of guys or girls to come in and, you know, maybe throw in a hundred or $200,000 each, and you go out, you get in and outta these deals in two, two and a half years. And so they're, they're pretty lucrative on, you know, on the smaller side. So that's a trend. I'm seeing those things, you know, there, there were several hundred, you know, grocery store. I, I, um, uh, department store, my god pharmacies on the market a couple of, uh, a couple of months ago. Yeah. So, Right. You know, and Rite Aid, Rite Aid just closed all of 'em down. So that, that's one big one. Yeah. Now a lot of those releases, but, uh, you know, there's, you know, there, there's gonna be opportunities there. And then for people that can, you know, get, get control of them and, you know, have rational sellers, uh, a lot of the sellers, you know, they want a 30 day due diligence in a 15 day close. And, you know, that, that just doesn't work for a, a savvy investor anymore. You wanna be able to come in, get a good idea who the tenant is, or have a tenant in tow. And, you know, we don't get every deal that we go after, but we close on virtually every deal that we, that we tie up. 'cause we, we are able to, um, 'cause we're able to negotiate a little bit more time, then we're able to come in with a tenant. And so at the end of the day, it's better for a seller than to, you know, come in and out with three or four different buyers Right. And start over, and all the legal expenses and all the stress with that and just, you know, give us four to six months and let us figure it out. And we generally do. And that, that's what happened with the, uh, you know, the seas candy deals up in, uh, citrus Heights Co. A couple issues that, you know, we've been hearing about, you know, challenges. So in the retail sector, especially if you're turning around properties and have to spend money on construction expenses, but insurance and costs on the construction side, how, how are you seeing those issues right now? Well, you know, I think it, I think it's the fundamental, uh, it, it, maybe a lot of people won't want to hear this, but I think it's the reality and the fundamental, uh, twists and turns that we're seeing, you know, in our industry is that on the contracting side, it's, it's ridiculously expensive. Um, and what we've heard from a lot of the contractors, it's like, we're not giving it back. You know, meaning that they felt like the developers had made a lot of money over the years and they want a bigger piece of that pie. And there have been times where they needed the work, or their subs needed the work and they needed something to do. And, uh, you know, it, it makes it more difficult to get, get things done. So it has slowed, I think, the pace on a number of things. 'cause a lot of deals don't pencil, uh, you know, like you wanna build a, you wanna build a Starbucks, right? Well, you, you'll, it'll never cash flow unless you put in a hundred percent equity. Most people don't want to put in a hundred percent equity. And so everybody goes to Starbucks with a ground lease and they're like, well, we don't wanna build it. So it's like, we don't wanna build that now Starbucks, you know, and there are, we've done a lot of their deals and they're great friends, but they've slowed down, you know, for a variety of reasons. Uh, and that's one of them. That's one of them. Oh. And then with insurance, uh, the insurers, it's a, it's a national phenomenon. I mean, you look at all the people that, you know, have moved to Florida and moved to Texas and said, oh, it, its cost of living's, lower cost of, uh, uh, housing is lower. Well, the insurance company said, perfect. There's my opportunity. Exactly. Yeah. And so that's what we're seeing. So there, that's, that kind of started more on, in Florida and other places on the East coast and, and it's come back out here now, we've had all the, you know, you get into the fire insurance and those types of things. Oh, I hear. Yeah, you're definitely, Which is horrific, but it hurts projects and you know, it, what it, what it does. I mean, fundamentally, those higher insurance costs we have to pass through to the tenants. And, uh, you know, depending on how your camera language is, is written, you either, you either are hurt by that or the tenant's hurt by it. But what ultimately happens is you end up getting less rent on your new deals because your triple nets are higher. Right. Right. The tenants look at, they're all in occupancy cost. And That's, that's the leasing challenges that are coming up right now. I mean That's right. You're definitely having that. Uh, where do you see rental rates going? Do you think they're gonna stay steady? They think they're gonna go up? Do you think they're gonna kinda come down a little bit? Well, I think in this environment, I'm very bullish on retail rents, and I think they're going to go up and continue to go up because of the supply and demand aspect. Okay. I think that the re the, uh, restaurant chains and the very good restaurant chains really figured things out during COVID. Yeah. And they used that knowledge on how to be more efficient with their operations. You'll see most restaurants now, they, you know, more, more pickups, more, more deliveries, less people in the restaurant itself, the Minimum wage didn't help. That didn't help at all. And we knew that with Newsom doing that, it was gonna, it was gonna hurt that industry. Right. Make More efficient. You know, you, you, you know, it's hard to get involved with that and say, well, these people shouldn't be paid this much money or this and that. But, you know, for the better operators, it seems like it's working out. I mean, you'll see in a, you know, a Chick-fil-A window or an in an out burger, uh, window, $25 an hour or something like that. And because they're great operators, it, it works. So, you know, it's a fundamental thing about, like, everything else are you, are you really good at, good at what you're doing? Um, so, you know, it's a variety of things. It's a variety of things. Are there any other states? You mentioned Florida, Indiana, Midwest. Are there any other states you're not in now that you'd like to go into? Well, as I, you know, we're opportunistic. I think if, um, opportunities came around in other markets, we'd take a look at 'em. But I, I think really, you know, it's a very competitive, very mature industry. We're not, we're not in tech, you know? Uh, so I think that, um, it, it, it's, it, it plays better for us and for our investors to focus on the markets and the, and the, and the people that we know and to be better, you know, be better in those markets, go deeper in those markets, and, uh, use that expertise and relationships to your advantage. What areas do you consider challenging, or what areas do you consider better places to develop right now? Well, you know, if, if you, you know, in California you rarely, unless you make a mistake or you lose a tenant, a major tenant as a surprise, you rarely do poorly on an investment, especially in Northern California. I mean, we've, we've seen, you know, rents and prices and things continue to, you know, expand in Northern California, you go to the bigger cities. I mean, you go into West la uh, that market, it's never gonna be down. You know, it's, it's always, it's, you know, Steve, I mean, you, you live down there. It's always good demand. And, you know, I used to say when I would try to find a deal, you know, at, at Sepulveda and Pico or, you know, uh, uh, Santa Monica and Wilshire, you know, something like that, you know, it's like you're, there's families that are, you know, there's a hundred families, four generations deep, all been trying to get those, those sites, you know? Right. Yeah. We have a lot of individual stores and restaurants that have gone dark, you know, that have been here forever. But that's not the real estate. You know, that's different things that have Well, But it does affect the real estate, right? It affects the real estate. And what's the repurposing of it? And that's, see, that's what I think is the, the fun and exciting approach about this is how do you repurpose, you know, these, these different buildings, right? Because there's Nothing wrong with those locations. It's the challenges of the operating those businesses, you know, now that were, that were the tenants. Um, alright. I think we've covered a lot in real estate. We've got a few minutes left. So Yeah, let's, tell me a little, tell us a little bit about starting the podcast. Yeah. Tell us about the podcast. Tell us about the podcast. 'cause I know you lo you know, we gotta know about that a little bit. Watching you do those is great. The moment Lee Cor, that was awesome. So how, how'd you start doing that? What, what, what got you into that? Give us a couple minutes of that. All right. So This is the, this, this, uh, this Plug for Talent time. All right. Well thank you for that. I appreciate that. We'll work you into one of our podcasts too, but, But save time for charities. You're working for. So tell us, you know, tell us about the podcast. So the, the fundamental side of it, it, it, it came out of, uh, came Outta Love and, uh, love for my alma mater and for football. So, uh, wonderful man by the name of Tom Brew, who's one of the top, uh, sports writers in the country. He, uh, currently is with Sports Illustrated. He covers the, uh, the Tampa Bay Rays now and, uh, Indiana basketball, Purdue basketball, and many other, many other things. He, uh, a couple years ago, he was the sports illustrator writer for the, uh, Tennessee Titans. Uh, so Tom, this was the early days of NIL. And, uh, so Tom had put together a, a podcast with two young men at, at Indiana, uh, middle linebacker, the name of Micah McFadden, who's the, uh, starting middle linebacker now with the New York Giants, right. Uhhuh, uh, Michael Pennix Jr. Who you've probably heard of. Sure. Star at Indiana and then Washington, and now with the, uh, Atlanta Falcons. Right. Um, Micah had actually won my scholarship. I've been for 15 years, been giving out the Terry Talent Football Leadership Scholarship. And so they give it to, you know, one of the leaders, but one of the better players on the team every year. And Micah won that. So Micah and I known each other a little bit. And so for the Mike and Micah podcast, Tom asked me if I'd be a sponsor, and I said, of course. So I came on one, he said, well, you're gonna be in town for this particular game. Why don't you come on the show with Micah because he won your scholarship and all this and that, so that that's still, it's still on the, you know, it's still on on YouTube. Yeah. So, uh, we went on the show and he said, Terry, this was our highest rated show so far that, that you were on once you get back and do another show. Yeah. We did another show and it got good rating. So, you know, and I, I love doing this. I think being in front of a camera, I think it's fun. It's a challenge. And, uh, I, I really enjoy it. So we talked about it. He says, well, why don't we do a, a podcast series and we'll do sports, leadership, philanthropy and business. And so we, we covered a number of different bases with that. And we've done, you know, coach Corso, uh, we did a, uh, one that came out terrific, but it was terrific because of our guest, uh, which is Angelo Pizo. Hmm. And, you know, Angelo Pizo was the writer and director of Rudy Hoosiers. You know, Hoosiers is considered the greatest sports movie ever. And Angelo is a, a dear friend. He recently did the All American, uh, which was a also a very good, uh, movie about Darryl Royal. Right. And a man that, uh, that had, uh, I think he had cancer and, and died on that team. Um, but, uh, you know, and he's telling us stories about Gene Hackman and, uh, you know, all of these guys. And so it's, uh, that was great fun. But, uh, so Tom and I did that. We've got about 15, uh, episodes in the Can. We've done some with nonprofits. We did one for a, a wonderful homeless facility. We've got more planned. Yeah. Yeah. Excellent. You got some in the can too, you know. Yeah. That's why I told you, Steve, we gotta get Guys, make a good, uh, team together. We gotta keep up. Let's do it. We could do a tripartite. Uh, there You go. What you guys are doing is fabulous. Also, I want, I want commend You can Talk about lightweight football on the East Coast. You know, I play lightweight at Cornell, So Oh yeah. There's no lightweight football. They all, everybody Has not the such thing. I'm a I'm a fan, not a player. Um, but anyway. So tell us a little bit about, more about your personal interest, your, your charities. We know you're an Indiana fan as far as college football, but any professional sports fans of, uh, that you follow? For example, you know, you're, you're in San Diego, or you're up in the Bay Area? I'm in the Bay Area now. We were, we were down in, uh, Rancho Santa Fe for, uh, a number of years. And then, uh, I've had a home in Mill Valley for about 30 years now. So we, uh, we came back up here, uh, during COVID, uh, which was kind of an odd time to move to the Bay Area. You could do a lot more. Yeah. San Diego, of course. So do you follow the 49 ERs, the, uh, uh, the Golden State Warriors? I mean, are you kind of like a local, or you're kind of based, where you grew up in, in Ohio, you more of a, uh, Cincinnati red fan or something? Well, You know, I think when you, you know, I grew up with a big red machine, so this was, okay. Yeah. Johnny Bench, Pete Rose, Tony Perez, Sparky Anderson, you know, all of those guys. So, you know, those memories were always there. It was fabulous. And then my, uh, my father, um, when we were young, so I was probably eight or nine years old then when, you know, the Bengals, you know, came to town and were at Riverfront Stadium. So he had season tickets for those games. And, you know, back in the days of Kenny Anderson and that Bill Bergey and that, that kicker horseman, we thought Horseman was a cool guy when you're a little Yeah. Great name. And, You know, he was German. Right. And, uh, so I like that. Um, and I, you know, I lived in Tampa, as you guys know for a while, and I, I really liked the Bucks when I was there. I thought what, uh, you know, Tony Dungy had done there. And of course, what John Gruden, you know, took it to, to a new level, uh, was fantastic. Um, I was There when McKay was the coach. That's right. John McKay was down there, and, uh, he was quite a character. Oh yeah. He was, he once picked up dinner for us, we're having dinner, and all of a sudden, this guy over there wants to to buy you dinner. We go, what do we do? They go, he said, because we gave up our table for a bigger party. So he thought that was nice. So he picked up our, our, our whole dinner, which was fabulous. And they gave us the game the next day. He was a, he was a neat, he was a neat guy. He, uh, he actually lives next door to one of my, uh, one of my old girlfriends down there on Bayshore Boulevard. And so Oh really? I met him a few times and, uh, I'll never forget that classic line when I, I think that hit that, uh, winning list season. They said, coach, what do you think about your team's execution? He said, I'm all for it. Alright, well, to to close, you know, I know you're involved in different charities, nonprofits, you know, different groups, burn Moores and spend a couple minutes telling us about, you know, some of the things you're doing to give back to the, to the industry. Well, thank you. Thank you. Uh, you know, mentorships, uh, a big part of it. Um, and I do mentorship with, you know, former, uh, student athletes at Indiana. And it's not just football players. We have young ladies, or young women, I guess you would say, that we, uh, help with their, their climbing the ladder in the business world. Um, you know, if you're, if you're a, if you're a student athlete, it's, it's a big advantage to you. 'cause you really understand resiliency and, you know, getting knocked down and, you know, multitasking and time management and those things. Right. Um, but the charity I'm, I'm really, uh, focused on right now, and it's a great one. It's called the Positive Coaching Alliance. Mm-hmm. And, uh, it's a, a, uh, a a a group of individuals from the Bay Area and San Diego, uh, Brad Geier actually, uh, was the founder of Coaching Corps down in, uh, San Diego, and they merged with PCA and, uh, now it's a much bigger group. And so we, uh, we go into predominantly inner city communities and we hire coaches. We pay and hire coaches to come into the school systems where they're deficient. So you can give some of these kids that don't have the same advantages, uh, you know, a, a real shot at it 'cause they're professionally trained coaches, and the coaches such an important, they're not only trained in Texas bow and batting swings, but it's resiliency, it's life lessons, it's team, it's family. Right. Those types of things. And you know, the punchline is, is that sports is the great equalizer. Yeah. So if you can get out and get that scholarship and get into a better area, a better lifestyle, then that is so important. And so they're doing that at that level to give these kids a chance to ideally, you know, see things and get a better opportunity. And then where I try to come in with it being through that environment of, you know, being a student athlete with a scholarship and getting a great education, uh, because of that scholarship, that now what I try to do is help them with exposure. Because the, some of these, you know, these like that old saying, you don't know what you don't know. Right. But, you know, you can shave years off of a young person's learning curve as they're out there, you know, trying to make their way and, you know, write their own script by saying, well, maybe you don't do it this way, but you do it that way. And I remember when this happened to me, or this happened to my friend over here, why don't you, you know, you talk to a Brad guy or you, you know, you, you, you talk to somebody like that that can help you and give you some advice on how to avoid the pitfalls, but also find, uh, you know, how to get more wind behind your sails. Yeah. Uh, that's fantastic. So valuable. Really, Jerry, it was great to meet you. Great to know you. Right. This was, uh, this hour went by faster than I think any of the other ones we've had. I know our audience, you know, people watch it all the way through. They're gonna get a lot out of it. You really share a lot. I, i, I think it's gonna be really helpful to a lot of people. So hopefully you enjoyed it too. You said you liked doing these, that they're fun. I, I thought it was great, man. I, you know, this is what I love live for, so, uh, it's definitely a labor love for me. So thank you again. Thank you. This Is great. Thank you for having me. You, you, you real, you guys are first class all the way and I'm, I'm very grateful for the opportunity. Well, we'll get you in a year when we get, can update us on, uh, on the project and some new stuff. Do Alright. Maybe you'll come to one of our conferences too. I will. I'll, I'll come to another one. I've been to some of them. That's right. Perfect. Thank you. Take care. Thank sir. Bye. Take care. You've been watching Commercial Real Estate Talk with Steven Arne, sponsored by commercial real estate inspectors, fidelity Mortgage Lenders, and Chase Partners.