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Hey, hey. Welcome to the next episode of Commercial Real Estate Talk with Steven Arne, where we have what we hope to be compelling, interesting, and informative conversations with leaders in the commercial real estate industry, iconic figures who own big portfolios of commercial real estate. And we're excited about today's show. We have guest Chris Tolo, managing director with TER Development as our guest. But before we start the show, let me introduce my co-host, Arnie Garfinkel. Hey, Arnie. How you doing? Hey, how you doing Steve? How's it going? Good. How things with you? Pretty Good. Not bad. You know, just chugging along. Holiday season, Halloween coming up. Anyway. Great. Well, uh, tell us a little bit about All Star Group before we get Into. Well, all Star Group started in 1995. Uh, we are a, uh, commercial real estate lending company, but, uh, more than that we put do events and the events have taken more of our focus, uh, commercial real estate lending conference, the commercial Real Estate Lending Expo and the Lawmakers forum. So, uh, yeah, we put a lot of people together. We do a lot of interactive events where you meet lenders and they, uh, um, get to know who you are and you can submit loans to them live. So we got a bunch of 'em every year. Um, you know, April in Long Beach, uh, Laguna Beach is in, uh, like August, and then we're doing one up in San Francisco in November. So that's what we're doing. Excellent. And I think many of you watching Will know Rent tv, our 25-year-old media company for the commercial real estate industry. We've got our main website providing news and information on a daily basis. We also put on five conferences a year. We've got, uh, San Diego our next one end of January. Uh, we've got this, uh, video platform, the review, where you're watching this show, uh, and we've got a lot of things, uh, uh, other things on the horizon. Uh, so with that, Arnie, our next piece of business, well, we Gotta talk about the sponsors. Without them, we couldn't do this Great companies that make this show happen. Uh, so let's get into, uh, the sponsors. The first one is a great, great supporter of Rent tv. Uh, and that is Chase Partners. Uh, they are, like I said, been a long time supporter of Rent tv, and now they've been sponsoring the show, uh, 'cause they want to get, uh, a new message out. Uh, they want the audience to know that Dave Parker, one of Southern California's leading developers and investors of industrial properties throughout Southern California for 30 years. Well, now they wanna let people know about their strategy, focusing on underperforming industrial and retail properties and other distressed properties, uh, with non-performing debt. So if you're an owner, lender, or broker that needs a fast decision and a fast close, uh, want to get an opinion from someone who's done this for decades, uh, contact Dave Parker or Chase partnersDavid@chasepartners.com. It'll come up on the screen, David, at chase partners.com. Tell him you heard about it on this show. Who's next? Arnie? Our next, uh, sponsor is Fidelity Mortgage Lenders. Fidelity Mortgage Lenders is a private lending company specializing in commercial real estate. It was founded in 1971 by Chuck Herson. Uh, it is known for its unique terms, fast fundings, no prepayment penalty and fixed rates. Call Uncle Chuck or John McClain at 807 5 2 9 5 3 3. That's 807 5 2 9 5 3 3 Fidelity Mortgage Lenders. Alright. And, uh, now, uh, the, the last one we'll mention, uh, and with the change of seasons critically important, especially with those first rains, uh, but in Southern California, the other sponsor of our show is commercial real estate inspectors, like I said, in Southern California. They're skilled inspectors provide critically needed inspection information, easily understood terms, as well as inexpensively, uh, and simple solutions. Whenever possible, let commercial real estate inspectors help you protect your deal. Call Tiffany Simington, her info's on the screen. Book your next next inspection today. Tiffany Simington, 8 1 8 9 5 7 4 6 5 4 8 1 8 9 5 7 4 6 5 4. Alright, well, let's, uh, welcome our guest, Chris Tolo, managing director at LA Development. Chris, uh, welcome to the show. Welcome. Thank you. Yeah, Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. I'm looking forward to it. Good, good. Great. We gonna get, we're gonna get to know you pretty well, so, uh, amazing. We've Got a lot to cover because, uh, you guys are active and, uh, spreading your wings a bit. So we've got a lot to cover, a lot going on. So let's jump right into it. Why don't you give our audience an overview of LA and any other business you may be involved in. You know, like the portfolio size, the sectors you're in. I, you know, I've known you all these years for multifamily, but I know that's, uh, that's evolved as well. So, um, you know, how many units, give us a little overview. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, uh, we're based in Marina del Rey, uh, Los Angeles. We've got about 45 employees at Lara. And we've really, we've got two verticals. Uh, the first is multifamily and the second is self storage. Uh, on the multifamily side, um, you know, probably fair to think of us as like one of the most active, you know, investment development companies, you know, in, in the Southwestern us. We've got, I know I Have. Yeah, Yeah, yeah. We've got about, we, we built over 3000 units. Yeah. Um, and you know, so, so for example, we recently completed 573 units in Burbank, uh, with, with our, with our partner Quadri, British Columbia Investment Court. Um, and that's in lease up now, uh, in August we lease 63 units. It was great. Um, it's an amazing project. We can come back to that. Um, we've also got Project 246 units in Los Fila. We have projects in Santa Monica, west Hollywood, Mar Vista, marina Del Rey, echo Park, you know, orange. We, we built and sold in Orange County in San Diego. Um, Riverside, we have 228 units, kind of a, a a two story walkup product. Um, we, we sort of, we, we went sun belting, uh, when COVID hit that as we expanded just out of our region. And so, um, we currently have 344 BTR units, um, in development in Albuquerque, New Mexico. A great market. Um, we'll be completing first units very soon. Um, that's, that's a great project. That's the largest opportunity zone site in the state of New Mexico residential opportunities zone site. Yeah. So that's a big one we Built to rent, right? BTR built to rent. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Bill to rent. Yeah. Right. Um, we've got, you know, projects in Dallas and, and Sacramento and, and, you know, a couple other things, cooking in other markets. And so, um, that's the residential sector. We've done a lot of development, uh, lately, you know, we found opportunities to buy existing multifamily assets typically for less than replacement cost. We can talk about that. Yeah. Um, and so, so, um, that is to say that in addition to building and developing, we're also buying existing assets. Um, and then on the, on the self-storage side, um, we have a, a, a self-storage company. Um, we've got, geez, about, I don't know now, 1.5 million square feet of storage across, you know, 12, 13 deals. Um, and, and, and a lot of that's in development. Some of it's existing. Um, we have a big Australian investment bank as a partner who committed 300 million to our self storage development venture. Um, we went on to hire the head of development from public storage in the west coast, the, the, you know, the largest storage rate in the world, right? Sure. Um, he runs our storage division and we've hired other storage people, both from public storage and other, other, uh, storage, you know, developers and operators. And so, um, so we've got the storage company and we're very active there. We're now acquiring existing storage assets as well. Um, you know, where we think they're under, you know, mismanaged and we can bring rents to market and do some. And, um, so, so we're doing that as well. So those are the two verticals, residential and storage. Okay, good. Excellent. Excellent. Yeah, that's great. And, uh, yeah, I mean, I, I little bit about you. Your dad's, uh, started the company way back when, and you came in. Um, how did you get into real estate other than being a family business? Yeah, yeah. I'll tell the story and I'll correct a couple pieces of that too. Um, so I'm just a kid from Littleton, Colorado trying to make a Oh, Really? Yeah. Okay. Um, yeah. So I'm from Littleton, Colorado, but yeah, I, uh, uh, I, I went to school at Cal Poly in San Luis Obispo, California. Ah, um, when I, when I was younger, my parents, my parents, my dad went to du University of Denver, uh, parents split up when I was young, was young. He moved out here. I stayed in Colorado with mom, um, and, you know, both remarried, which is amazing. And, and, and then I went to Cal Poly in San Luis Obispo. Great, great school. Loved debt, great school. The learn by doing mentality, um, really, really worked well for me. And I ended up, I got an internship right out college, um, at PGM, uh, which is the real estate Private equity, uh, division of Prudential Financial. Right. Um, and at PIMI started as an analyst and I was on the acquisitions team, you know, all product types, office, you know, data centers, industrial, multifamily, and, and ultimately, you know, moved up the ranks, became a director at PIM. Um, when I left, uh, I was overseeing our development activity, multifamily development activity in the Western us. Um, and, and that was a great experience. Meanwhile, uh, my dad founded Lara in 2000, uh, 2009 coming outta the GFC. Um, prior to that he was in real estate as well, and he's had a long and an amazing career. And, and, but anyway, so, um, I came down in 2015, um, you know, got, got the call and Hey, Chris, you know, you should come down and join the family biz. And at the time I called it the 30 year interview. I was 10 years ago, so you could do the math and figure out my age, I guess. Um, but yeah, Lara, you know, prior to my joining, Lara was, uh, buying, buying land deals from banks, um, you know, that had foreclosed on other, you know, developers and, uh, completing construction and buying land and processing entitlements and selling, you know, selling subdivisions to public and private home builders and doing some development as well. Um, and, and so I came down in 2015, and at that juncture, um, you know, we really launched the multifamily development platform. Right. It was the right time in the cycle. And, and, and we started, I'll tell this story. Um, we started with a deal in, in Santa Ana. And my, my task, my first task was to find the capital for this deal. Ah, yeah. Um, and the background, so, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. I knew, I knew how, you know, exactly, I knew how capital wanted to see deals presented. Mm-hmm. Um, and because I was on the other side of that. And so for this deal, I think the capitalization was about 70 million. Um, and, and we went out and, and, and basically the longest short of it is we got a hundred nos. Um, you know, we found the loan, but then, you know, we got a cog P because, um, you know, at the time, right, we had to, we had to sign on lender guarantees and certain net worth and liquidity requirements, and the loan was not small. Um, and, and so we got that piece, but we're trying to get the equity and I, we literally got a hundred nos, right? And, you know, props to my dad. 'cause he kept saying, you know, every no gets you closer to a yes. Um, you know, stay committed. Like, you know, and, and obviously that's true assisting. And, um, you know, and so really with, with unwavering persistence, um, eventually, you know, we got a yes. And, and it was interesting, um, the story from there, you know, the, we were thrilled, right? The, probably the, the person next door could hear me, uh, you know, yell with joy when we got it in the office. And, but then, uh, we get an email, like, we got the term sheet. Oh, we signed the term sheet. And then I got an email like a week later, he's like, Hey, Chris, we went and we saw the site and we're a pass. Um, and not only that, I don't think you'll ever be able to get this deal done. Um, and that was because the location was a little periphery at the time. Um, and, and, you know, and so at that point I was like, you know, I wanted to just quit. But it, it also sort of gave in me like a new sense of, uh, gotta prove this guy wrong. Like, this is b******t, you know? So, um, so then, you know, it got, got even more committed to doing it. And maybe 10 nos later we found the group that said yes. Um, and we did the deal. And, and you know what? We ended up building it for 70 million and sold it for 101 million. Um, and it was, it was a, it was a great deal for us. Um, and that's, you know, a little more than the question you asked me, but it's sort of a cool story. No, that's okay. You covered like seven questions. I have a follow up. During, before you joined with your dad, were you in the back of your mind thinking, you know, at some point we will join forces or Yeah, just randomly happened with your experience and what he was starting and he convince you? It's a good question. I would say that it was in the back of my mind. Yeah. Um, you know, and when I was in high school, I interned for him. He was, he was a, a, a home builder building single family homes in Southern California, mostly San Diego. And, um, I interned there. In fact, my first internship, I was actually like, I think I was like picking up trash on the job site. That was sort of weird, but, um, well, that's how everybody starts. Yeah, exactly. And then I, and then I was in the office, you know, doing whatever. But, um, you know, and then, and then, you know, when the GFC hit, um, you know, that, that, you know, home building business, the music stopped. Right. Um, and, you know, but you know, he, he made it out, you know? Okay. But, um, still like that, you know, that period of time observing that, you know, I, I, I, I got to sort of see firsthand how tough that was for anybody in the business. And I had just started at PGM and, you know, it was tough for, for everybody. Um, but no, I mean, and, and as the market sort of, you know, picked up and, um, he pivoted, um, a bit and, and, you know, founded Lara in 2009 and, um, you know, things started going, going well. Um, you know, that the idea, you know, percolated up, you know, in a big way. And yeah, it was, it was good. Well, I, I, I think you answered my, my next question with your previous answer about that, the first deal that really took you to the big time. Yeah. 'cause it sounds like that that was it. So let me ask you, when you look back on all the deals you've done so far, is there one major standout project that you're most proud of? Well, I Think it might be that one. Um, not that I don't want to tell a talk about a different deal, it's just that one with a hundred and whatever, 10 nos or whatever, right? That, that, not only did we find the money, but we, we, you know, it, it, it was a very profitable deal, right? Yeah. Um, you know, that, that I'm very proud of. I'd say, I'd say, um, I love all of my deals, like my children the same, you know what I mean? They're Like children, you can't love it More. And I, and I have two, I have two kids, and I love 'em the same. And I, you know, I feel that way about, about our 30 deals or whatever, but, um, you know, it's, it's, I'm very proud of our deal in Burbank that we just opened Intro Burbank. 'cause it's, Yeah, I, I'm familiar with that. My, yeah. My daughter lives right up the street from That's A great little video. Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. You saw it cool. I did. Yeah. Yeah. 573 units. Um, it's big. It took a long time to get approved, you know, very difficult to get stuff done in the city of Burbank. Right. Um, four years, if you can believe that. Four years. I was, I was gonna ask you four years to get approval, just to Get approval. And yet you're doing another one. I know. Yeah. And How, how long did construction take? Well, construction took, um, you know, around three years. 'cause it's big. And there was some, uh, as we did excavation, we had to do Approvals. Took a year longer, Right? Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. Crazy, huh. Right. Yeah. And now we're like in lease up. Like, I like to say, if I had my daughter when I started working on this project, she'd be nine. You know what I mean? That gives you a sense. Um, and so, geez, that's a long time. And that, you know, therein lies the, uh, the supply constraints in our markets, right? Yeah. That you don't see in other markets. But, um, that project's cool. It's got a 40,000 square foot roof deck with five bodies of water. Um, I like to say it's the best roof deck in the country. Big bold statement, but I think it is, it's amazing. Um, so anyway, so proud of that one for sure. What's the Unit mix? It's, it's, well, we've got, you know, I think it's, we've got studios, ones, twos and threes. It leads Threes. Yeah. Yeah. In fact, yeah. And you know what was interesting? At the time when we, when we designed, put three bedrooms in there, there was some question, um, from, you know, folks about like, Hey, should we be doing this? This is not customary. Um, we don't see three bedrooms in the market, or if there are, there's very few, right? I think we did like seven, 8% threes. But like that's, you know, that's like 30 of 'em on a big deal or whatever. Right? Majority would be, the majority would be two plus twos. Correct. Isn't that your Majority are probably ones really Okay. Studios. Yeah. But twos, twos are probably the second most popular. And, um, studios, we have some of those. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but the three bedrooms, you know, as it turns out, because of the, the fires in the, in the, well, to a lesser extent, the Palisades were Burbank, but in Aldina, um, you know, we had a lot of our threes filled up early on from families that needed somewhere to live. And Burbank is a good school district. Um, but, but homes are 1.2 million average home value. So like, it's hard to get in. Yeah. So anyway, so we were able to accommodate, you know, that that demand. Um, and so the threes actually, you know, it ended up leasing faster than we thought, but, um, anyway, so yeah. But it's, it's a great project. And then it's great project. We've got some other cool ones. One connected to Barnsdale Park with a, like where, where there's a, a Frank Lloyd Wright, uh, house. What's the, it's a UNESCO World Heritage site. The only one in LA we're we're directly connected. Really? Yeah. Yeah. That's pretty sweet. That was hard to get approved. Um, we've got two in Mar Vista that are amazing. The only rooftop pool on a wood frame building in West LA and get grants to Charlie Mar Vista, um, you know, right place, yeah. Is another gem. And then honestly, like, I love these, these storage deals are awesome. Um, you know, so I love them. I love our deal in Albuquerque. 'cause it's big. It's BTR, you know, biggest op zone deal in the state of New Mexico. That's amazing. Um, the fries, electronic sites are all cool. Converting them into storage, like in Irving, Texas. Well, That's, yeah, that's, yeah, that's, We sold the land. Yeah. And we sold the adjacent land to HEB grocer, which is really cool. Um, you know, so anyway, it's hard to pick one. You know, they're all, they're all those are some of the examples. I'm I'm sure Seeing how excited you get about it. Yeah, Yeah. No, you, you could see. But I like the integration between the storage and the multifamily, because when you're getting a multifamily, when you're get moving into an apartment, you need storage. And, and even though I, I've seen, you know, I, I saw the thing on your Burbank, uh, you have certain, so your closets are huge, which is another, another thing that, uh, is something that a lot of people don't realize that when you're getting an apartment, but you're gonna need self-storage, and you can kind of cross, uh, reference both of 'em because you, you got a good feel for both. And, and I find that that is, is a really good integration between the two. Definitely. A lot of times the same market may not be the same individuals, but Definitely. Yeah. And It's alright. I'm gonna, I'm gonna slide this on. All right. So I love the S Go ahead. I had another question on Burbank, but That's all right. Go, go, Go ahead. You know, love the enthusiast. We'll get back to it on all the positive, all the positive things. So let me see if I could, you know, jump ahead. How about one, one deal that you did that, that you wi you wish you pulled the hook out and threw the fish back in the water? What any, any of those? Let's see. I mean, Those are great learning experiences. They're Great learning experiences. I guess the first one that comes to mind in 2016, uh, we bought a site, we called it Deluxe Hollywood. It was, it was in Hollywood, um, basically on Hollywood Boulevard and Western, approximately. And we bought this site, and unbeknownst to us, it, it was located directly next to this guy who is a, you know, a zealot I guess. But he, you know, basically he and this lawyer litigate projects, you know, for a living. Like, that's what they do. And, and in fact, mostly in Hollywood. And so, um, you know, they try to find these projects and they litigate 'em, and then they try to, you know, se a green mail extract money or, or stop development entirely. Um, I'll say that at LA we've entitled 37 properties in a row with a hundred percent success rate, knock on wood. Mm-hmm. Um, that's one of our, you know, I guess claims to whatever fame if you will. Um, but this one we were worried was gonna ruin our record. It didn't. But, um, you know, we spent a lot of time on this and, and then outcome these guys, and they come to our hearing and they submit a letter, you know, and, and we felt like there was some risk there. Um, we, we had a, an office building that, um, came on the property that we actually, we, we, we fin we converted it and we leased it to Netflix, which was awesome. Yeah. Um, and at that juncture, when we felt the opposition on the entitlements, and we did the lease, we actually, we sold. And, and that ended up being a good decision for us. Um, and, you know, made a little money, but like importantly, um, you know, determined not, you know, not to, we spent a lot of time on this. Right. Um, and so, you know, I look back on that sometimes and say, geez, what a, how much time and energy we put into this, and how stressful it was. Um, but that being said, like the execution was okay, and we figured it out. Um, but, but then I stopped, and I remember that during that process, I actually met people who later became instrumental to our success in many ways. Um, like an architect, you know, Richard Solaris had urban, a architecture lab. He's become a friend. Um, but like, we worked with him and, and through that relationship we met, you know, many other people who later, you know, in, in some way or another were, were helpful to us in our growth and success. Um, and there are other, there are other, you know, areas of our success that I could point to having originated from that transaction. So anyway, so that's a, that's a long answer, but I think, You know, I, I gotta touching on that 'cause you kind of went right into my next question is how do you find projects? Do you get it from brokers, from personal relationships? Do you find it based on strategy or opportunity, uh, off market? I mean, where, where do you find these? Yeah, so we have long tentacles into the market, um, you know, through our, through our relationships. And I think now, like, you know, deals, beget deals, you hear that saying, but like, basically, you know, because we've been so active and transactional, we see more deals. You know, that's, you know, that's the universe, you know, responding. Um, and so I think I, but, but really, no, I think people read about it in the press or whatever, and they send us more deals. And, um, it's, it's, you know, so now we get a lot of deal inflow. Um, but we also have really interesting relationships that have led to deals that are just sort of, you know, surprising. Like one guy in our, you know, in our company goes like standup paddleboarding with somebody and his friend owns a site and he doesn't know what to do with it. 'cause he inherited it and he wants to, you know, understand his options and like, oh, that's a deal. Right? Yeah. Or like, um, just, just interesting relationships. Or sometimes like our architects or, or our consultants will send us deals, right? Like it could be a family biz and, um, you know, somebody's trying to figure out what to do with it, and they hire an architect and that architect goes, Hey, you should talk to these guys. 'cause I'm doing a study for 'em. And it looks like, you know, they want to figure it out. Um, so sometimes it's that. So it's, it's interesting. And then sometimes through brokers, but I mean, we love our broker, the relationships. It's u usually it's not like a fully marketed, you know, household name broker. Um, sometimes, but, but you know, usually it's like, it could be like a specific relationship we have. It's a guy who's like, Hey, like all I do is cover Riverside, or all I do is cover Dallas or whatever. Um, and he runs around and he finds deals and, um, you know, and, and, and we'll show him to us, and obviously we pay him and, you know, it's a good relationship. But those are sort of off market. Um, you know, so that too. Yeah. So I would say relationships and reputation is, is what, where you get the majority of your Yeah, that's a good summary. Yeah. And good looks Say, well, you know, you gotta have that, go ahead, Steve, next Piece of property that you're tracking for a while and you just, it's just been on your radar until the timing comes up every now and then. Yeah, yeah, Yeah. A lot of times we, we say we hang around the hoop, um, and so that's Great. You're In the, yeah, like, like, we'll submit offers on deals and like, we'll be like second or third and like, oh, sorry, you didn't win the deal like somebody else did. And we go, all right, well, like, if they fall out or like retr or whatever, and it bounces back, like, we'll be here. And then a lot of times, like, we get the call like six months old guys, uh, are you still interested? Like, and we're like, yeah, we are still interested, you know, no hard feelings. We don't mind being a runner up. Like, that's fine. You know? Yeah. Um, and we're hanging around. And so, um, yeah, a lot that does happen, uh, fairly often for us. And, and I mean, with all these opportunities you're getting hit with, you know, like everywhere in the, in the different, uh, you know, greater LA markets, how do you then decide to actually green light a deal? I mean, for development, I was an analyst when I worked for developers age as it goes. So the idea of like trying to like do a projection with all the different uncertainties, timing costs, what the rents are gonna be three, five years. Like, you must run a million different projections, right? And then how do you decide, is it IRR return on equity? Is it cash flow go? What, what, what, what is that driver when you're about to sign that deal and there's no going back? Yeah, it's a great question. Every, the profile of the deal, um, impacts this. So we, it's really, it's really kind of the risk adjusted return. And so, um, so we could parse that out between like development and, and like buying an existing asset that has cash flow, right? Uh, in the case of development, development is a pain in the ass, right? But, uh, but it can go really well. But it's also tough. So like, like today, like we want to be, for development, we want to be at least 150 to, you know, maybe 200 basis points above. Um, we wanna return on cost to be 1 50, 200 basis points above the in place cap rate. So for example, we think cap rates in la I'll just make it up our five for storage, let's say, or for multifamily. Um, then we'd want to be a six and a half to a seven on the UNT trended return on cost, right? Or NOI over our budget with no rent growth. And that, um, that's the, that spread is the gravy. So, um, we want a nice buffer there. Um, and then that's that really everything else is just noise, you know, IRR and leverage and whatever. But, um, yeah, and then like buying an existing asset, like with cash flow, that's a little different, less risk. Um, so you don't need the same spread. And we really like at kind of like, Hey, what can we get to, like, what kinda like, stabilized, you know, yield on cost. Can we get to like, once we get, if there's concessions in the market, like those burn off, maybe, um, you do, you do some CapEx like maybe rents are below market if it's storage, 'cause you're buying it from a mom and pop and they don't have revenue management software or whatever, and you're gonna mark rents to market. Like, you know, you kind of look out and say, Hey, look, where are we gonna get to on this thing? Um, you know, so those are kind of the, the starting points for us. Like IRR matters. Yeah. But at the end of the day, for me, it boils down to that. So let me ask you, based on your background as well, this would be a great question. It's, it's my favorite question is how do you finance deals? Do you do Yeah. Equity, you construction loans with takeouts, uh, you know. Yeah. How do you, how do you do it? And today it's harder than it was a few years ago. Um, and next year hopefully it'll be easier, but, um, you know, so rates Rates are coming down, so Yeah. Yeah. So our cap stack, like let's say it's a hundred million dollars development mm-hmm. Um, you know, which is, which is, you know, maybe a regular deal size for us. Yeah. The, you know, we'll get like a, let's say a $60 million construction loan, and that leaves 40 million in equity, right? And then, and then we'll go find a 90, we'll do typically like a 90 10 LPGP ratio. So we'll go to the institutions and in, in some cases, direct to pension funds or family offices, whatever. And we'll look for one 90% partner, right? Let's say, let's say it's a big institutional LP household name, well, they'll put in 90% of the 40 in this example, which leaves four, um, depending on the deal size. In this example, I've just used a hundred million dollar deal size. So the 4 million, um, we'll oftentimes bring in a cog, not always okay, but like maybe we want to bring in a cog for, for 50 to 75% of the 4 million, right? So that they put in two to three and we put in, you know, one to two, whatever. And, um, and that tends to be the structure that we use. Um, why do we do that? Why, why do a code gp? Well, because then you could do more deals, right? Um, that helps and risk. Yep. And that's the, yeah. And depending on Juan's balance sheet, um, oftentimes the cog, you know, depe depends on the person, but like, um, you gotta have a hundred percent of the loan amount is net worth and 10% as liquidity, right? On the balance sheet. So if you're getting a $60 million loan, you gotta have 6 million typically that you're just gonna let sit there the whole time. Well, not ev not a lot of developers either. They, either they don't have it or they do. And they're like, well, I wanna use that for deals. Like, I don't want just to sit there. And, um, so, so you could get a cog who, who has that ability, right? And so, so that's a good model. Now, we don't always use cogs. I gave you a big deal, a hundred million big deal. Uh, there are other deals that are smaller where we don't, you know, where we don't use cogs. And, and that's fine too. And sometimes those are 9, 5, 5 or 90 tens. But, um, but typically it's that way if we're buying an existing asset, um, the structure's not really that different actually. Um, it's just instead of a construction loan, you might have a, you know, a perm loan or a bridge loan at 60 ish percent, and then yeah, they'll sort of complete it that way. So that's kind of how we do it. It's a lot of, it's a lot of work, right? It'd be easier if I just had a billion in the bank and I could just go do deals, but Well, that Would make it everybody's life easier. That'd be so easy. Right? Because You really, it's like different partnerships for each project, basically. Yeah, Exactly. As opposed To like corporate single Asset entity for each one, or, yeah. Right. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's an SPE for each entity. Okay. Um, and that's how we do it. Yeah. And then is there opportunities for, you know, like the public, uh, high net worth individuals to come on and, uh, with you In some deals? In some deals, yes. And we're actually starting to think more about doing that Uhhuh. Um, you know, there, there are some examples of deals where we don't have institutional LPs, right? Yeah. Um, and in fact, um, there's a couple we're looking at right now, you know, doing that. Um, and, and that, you know, that's a good model too, right? Um, I have some friends who are syndicators and they, um, you know, they've done very well and, and they like it. And, um, once You get it rolling, you know, once you get it rolling Yeah, Yeah. Investors, right? It's At the beginning. Yeah. We, we do some of that. And in fact, we hired a guy at our company who is actually specifically tasked with procuring more high net worth individuals and, and, you know, kind of family office type capital for this, right? For that exact strategy. And he is already, he's already doing it. Um, so, um, looking at, you know, bringing in a, a high net worth now to recap one of our deals with this 10 31 money, and that's really interesting. And other stuff like that. So yes, the answer is yes. Okay, Good. Excellent, Steve. Uh, well, I was gonna say, uh, uh, leading through the path of the deal, uh, how do you exit deals? Do you exit deals and, and when and, and, and why? Yeah, so we used to be more of a build and sell shop. Um, and that why were we, I don't know, because that's, that was the profile. It's a lot of that's driven by the capital, right? Right. The, now if you have high net worth guys in there, um, you can hold as long as you deem appropriate. Um, but if you have a 90% institution in there, they can sell whenever they want. And you know what I don't like about that? You could have a, a, let's say you have a institutional LP and, um, the fund managers in New York, right? And, and, and they, you know, one of their investors is a pension fund and goes, you know, it's a redemption. Like, we want our money back, or, or it's at the end of their fund life. They look at a map and they're going, uh, sell this and this and this. 'cause we think, you know, we need the money. You Right. You don't wanna be like at the other side of that if it's in a downturn, right. 6 39. But yeah. And so, and so what we've done is we've tried to position, um, our business in a way where we can hold assets longer term. Um, and, and so now we're trying to hold long term plus it's a lot of work. You go through a lot of work to, to find the land and, and title it and build it, and then like you sell it and maybe, you know, hopefully, you know, you pay tax. That's, you know, no one likes that. We'd rather hold and get depreciation and cash flow and, you know, uh, that's a beautiful thing. So the short is, so in summary, we do both, but we're trying to, we're trying to hold longer term now. Right. But sometimes someone may come along and offer you a deal you can't refuse every, well, that Can happen too. Yeah. That can happen too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Hey, so I wanted to get, uh, talk more about the, the Burbank project, and I wanted to get some more information about your current projects, but I saw the second one you're doing in Burbank, you like being by, uh, transit areas. I mean, that one's near the airport. Yeah. You're Completely changing. Uh, that's a major mixed use, uh, location. So tell me a little bit more about that project and, and compare that one to the other Burbank project Yeah. And any of your current projects that you wanna talk about. Yeah, so absolutely. Um, that's in our fries, electronics, jv. And so we, you know, we have a JV with the, with the Fry family. Yeah. And they put, they put land in and we process entitlement approvals, we get to shovel ready, um, and then we, you know, we'll develop the sites and we've done it in Sacramento. We've done it in Irving, Texas. We've got this big one in Burbank. Yeah. Um, and that's a good structure for us. We're looking at another one with them in a different sunbelt market. So, um, it's really, it's really a great relationship. We're very fortunate, you know, to have that and, and we really like them. Um, but yeah, I mean, we like Burbank, we like, we like being in the media capital of the world. Um, what we like about Burbank is the jobs to housing ratio. Um, there's 160,000 jobs, but only 40,000 households, approximately. That's four jobs for every one house. Um, if you look at the rest of California or the country, you know, most, most, uh, markets operate at like 1.2 jobs per house. If you see one that's like two jobs per house, wow, that's really good. Right? Like Palo Alto or whatever. Yeah. Um, but if you look at Burbank, it's four jobs per house. And so that means there's a ton of, a ton of people, job, ton of jobs, people making good jobs, good money, but they have nowhere to live. And so, um, we're meeting that demand. And so, you know, anyway, so these are the reasons why we like Burbank. Okay, good. Nice. Um, one of the things I wanted to ask, you know, speaking already mentioned the, the transit areas, but, um, the effects of, uh, AB 12, uh, 1287, what did, gimme your thoughts. Yeah. That's the density bonus for Right, right. The density Bonus. Yeah. Um, it's great. We have a project in Marina del Rey that I'll, I'll give you a live example. We got fully entitled for 210 units, um, not far from my office. I can almost see it down the street. Um, and that got fully entitled for 210 units. And then this, you know, this passed, right? This bill. And so we go, geez, should we like, add a level of units and go from two 10 to two 70 and add a little time? And we're like, run the numbers. Yeah. By the way, yes. It adds more affordable, which the city needs and wants, right? Right. But at the same time, um, it's, it's, it's better for the proforma. And we get, and, and the city is in such a housing crisis, if we can deliver another 60 much needed units, um, yeah, we should do it. And we did. And so we, we, we utilized that bill and we add, and we added 70 units and a little more affordable. And boom, here we go. Now we're entitled again. So, um, there's one example of us using it, right? That's, that's a way to take a, uh, uh, make a positive out of a negative. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, hey, how involved do you get in the architecture and construction of projects you personally? Um, you know, I like to get involved in the fun stuff and, and, and part of that is fun for me, um, really more specifically, like, um, amenity space programming and planning and like some of like looking at like design, you know, looking at materials and ff and e selection and like, I don't do it. I don't actually do it, but like, we'll have meetings, you know, with our design team, right. Um, where I want to go and I'm like, oh, this is cool. Like, you know, do you like this material, like this tile or this? And it's kind of fun to see it. And usually it's just our very talented people recommending stuff and us saying, this looks great, or, you know, change this maybe, or whatever. But, um, you know, so I, yeah. So like I am involved, you know, in like floor plans. Like I, you know, I like to, you know, see the floor plans, make sure that, you know, they're being designed in a way that we like and, and unit mix and stuff. So some of the key stuff Yeah. But I'm not on like the we every weekly call or whatever. Okay. But yeah, it's good. I think it's, I think it's important. Yeah. Okay. And, and it shows in the results. I mean, I, you know, try to think of a, of a good descriptive word for your architecture, but I think fun might be a good word, you know? Yeah. Fun is a good word. Um, you know, yes, it is. Awesome. Is a good, no, I don't know. I mean, you know, colorful, You know, it's definitely brightens up the neighborhoods there in for sure. Yeah. Well, yeah. Very modern too. Yeah. Modern. Yeah. Like a lot of our smaller lifestyle brand, like the Charlie is a lifestyle brand. Yeah. Um, a boutique lifestyle brand. Those are, are, are kind of like, like a boutique hotel vibe, um, which is really cool. So like that is, that's that brand. Yeah, we do, we do lean into that. Yep. Right. I i we could guess how you came up with the name for, you know, the Charlie, you Could guess, but you might be wrong. Yeah. It's not the dad. Well, what happened is, you know, allegedly we engaged this consultant, right? This, this branding consultant really to come up with a name for our new lifestyle brand. And, you know, you pay 'em, you know, whatever you pay 'em, 20 grand, whatever, I don't know what it is. And, and, and, and they do all this great research and they present to you like 10 names, you know, that they like and why, and the story and the theme, and, and they they do, they're very thoughtful. And then it's like, and we got the one and we're like, okay, what is it Charlie? You know, and you're kinda like, I could have thought of, but I didn't think of it. But then, you know, you ask 'em like, oh, it's Nate. You're like, well, no, actually it's not, um, that yes, that's a cool sort of, you know, connection. They go, but we like it for all these reasons. And they, and they explain and it's cool and it's hip and it's fun and like, you know, this is the thinking and there's, and they, you know, run the searches and, and ultimately like, they're like, it's actually not, but they go. But it is cool. Yeah. Um, so I, I don't know. So there's the answer. You could decide. Yeah. We're not gonna see the Chrises coming out any soon. You're Not gonna see the Chrises coming out any soon? Not yet. Yeah. Not yet. Yeah. No, there'll be, I don't think, gotta put his time in. Yeah. So On back to more serious on the development side, you know, I I I, I've been reading, you know, I, I think we've discussed some things. So the major challenges, you know, you've always developed in the greater LA area, not necessarily the city of la, but surrounding cities. Yeah. So the major challenges today in developing multi-family properties, you know, do doing what you, whether it's interest rates, cost of materials, plans, I'll just let you tell us, uh, you know, and how that's affecting your strategy going forward. Yeah. I think I would say this, I think generally speaking, it's hard to justify new multifamily development today unless you have really three things. Let's say two, let's say at least two of the following, three things, uh, a low land basis, um, you know, is, is of course helpful, um, cost effective design, which to me means above grade parking, right? Um, so not subterranean parking, um, or if you have subterranean, just a smidge, whatever, but like, but you really don't want that and, and high rents. And it's actually hard to have all three. Uh, two of three is good too, but like, really the last two, let's say, um, it's very hard to have a cost effective design and high rents. And the reason is, is because typically, um, you know, when, when you're in an area with high rent, it's because it's more urban infill. And as a result you gotta go below grade with your parking 'cause it's a smaller site or more dense or whatever. Like look around the Marina Delray where I am, like the most of these projects are like below grade podiums, long skinny rectangles. Well, we found a big square in Marina Delray, um, and as a result, we, we did a wrap with above grade parking and the units kind of wrap around it, right? And, and as a result, like that math, like work that math, you know, that math works well. Um, I will say that generally speaking, um, you know, measure ULA, the, the so-called mansion tax, one of the most deceptive, uh, measures of all time, um, is inhibiting new housing production in a big way. Um, it has caused investors to redline la. Um, and, and it's, it's, it's, you know, basically it's counterproductive. Um, and so there are a couple things cook and I think to potentially, you know, reverse that so we can get more housing production. Um, but as I said, you know, the math ain't math thing. Um, I said, you know, and Everything you said is, you know, everyone talks about how we need affordable housing and everything you said and, and how one of the three things you need is high rents. It all is like reverse of what we need to be doing to create more housing. We need More housing. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, so that's a, that's an obstacle. Interest rates are an obstacle. Yes. Um, luckily we got a, you know, we got a cut, we got another one, you know, that'll bring the Fed funds right, like below four, that'll be nice. And then, like, we're seeing the five and 10 year treasury now starting with, you know, three handles and that helps and spreads are coming in and all that. But, um, you know, it's, it's, it's still tough, but it's becoming easier to develop, but it's really good to buy existing right now. But that's also, that, that's also becoming more, more challenging. Yeah. So the pendulum is shifting. And again, actually, yeah. How's that affecting leasing? I mean, Lea where are your rent? Where, how's your renter rates going? Are they going up, down? Yeah, same. Our rents are go are strong and leasing activity is robust. Yeah. Lease trade outs, you know, on renewals is, is strong. So, um, I think there's a couple wild cards there. Like, well, first, and this isn't a wild card, this is a, a, a fundamental fact that, um, LA and South, you know, most of Southern California has very, um, you know, good supply demand fundamentals. It's very tough to get things approved, right? Told you about Burbank, um, and markets like Phoenix, Nashville, you know, not to pick on them, there's a whole bunch, um, they got way more supply than us that's all coming online, and they have concession wars and concession hopping and rents are down, and it's actually even getting uglier. Whereas, you know, markets like Chicago, let's use that as an o as an example. Yeah. The opposite. Um, they got no new supply and, and le you know, lease trade outs are six, seven, 8% right now. Um, there, and, and pretty much everywhere rents are growing, you know, four or five, 6%. Same with San Francisco Bay Area, same thing. San Francisco's crazy. Yeah. They're trying to get an apartment right now. It's Yeah, yeah, yeah. In, in la like same, uh, in LA at least the supply demand, demand story is the same. It's very, you know, demand is, is good and supply is, there's, is is thin. Right? Um, I wouldn't say rents are cranking, but like, you know, they're not, it's not getting crushed like these other markets, I'll tell you that. Yeah. Well, how about in the, in the, um, your new projects, where do you get, for instance, in Burbank on a, on a one bedroom or two bedroom? What's, uh, what's the going rate? Well, let's see, on that project, our one bedrooms are getting like, call it like 3,400 Uhhuh, which is good. The two bedrooms. The two bedrooms are like 4,500 ish. So interestingly that, that that gap between the one and two is more narrow than we would've projected. The ones are getting more than we thought. The two's less, but that'll change a little bit. But, um, you know, but yeah, that's an example there. But like every, every market's different. You know, we have stuff out in Riverside, you know, garden style workforce housing, you know, that's different. Um, but yeah, it's, it's, you know, generally speaking, like demand is good. The other thing I, I mentioned a wild card, the, uh, the fires in the Palisades, you know, certainly not the catalyst anybody wanted. Right. However, um, it is a fact that 20,000 housing units were taken off the market and as a result, um, you know, ran and occupancies across West LA were, were buoyed, um, by that, by that unfortunate event. And so, um, you know, I think that's sort of like a little bit of a wild card that's sort of, that's, that's caused the market to do better than it otherwise would have, but yeah, good point. Good. Yeah. Um, well I think you touched on, you know, the demographic of the tenants and everything, but how about the, uh, you know, besides New Mexico, what are some of the other states or regions, other regions of California perhaps, but other states that you may be looking to, uh, to move into on the multifamily side? Well, I'll tell you, um, we like, we like Dallas, we think DFW is a great market. We're already, we've already planted our flag there. Um, we've already planted our flag in Albuquerque. Um, and you know, there's a couple of Phoenix we like, uh, Denver, but it's kind of soft right now. Gotta be careful. Um, you know, market we like, um, and have experience in, through, through my dad's history is, is Chicago. And so interesting. Um, you know, Chicago's a great market, um, and very strong right now, you know, not for develop, not for development, for buying existing. Um, and, and we like the San Francisco Bay area for buying existing for similar reasons, right? Um, you know, so those, those markets are interesting to us. Um, but there's gotta be a really good reason, you know, generally we're southwestern US guys, um, you know, Texas West and along, you know, in the Sunbelt, whatever. But, um, but if there's, if there's a good reason for us to enter into a different market, um, we certainly can very easily, especially. And when you Buy buy, when you buy build properties, are you looking for a turnaround story, you know, something where you could come in and you, you know, improve it? Yeah, a lot of times, but not always. In some instances, yeah, in some instances, um, we're buying existing multifamily assets, um, and it could be like a brand new building that was built in the 2020s, and it's still on the construction loan and it's a good, good developer and borrower, but like, they built it and they're at the end in their construction loan's about to mature. And like if they, they can't refi it out without a big cash, right. That Situation, good Opportunity. And they don't wanna put a bunch of cash in, so like they're a seller. Um, and because we're a developer by trade, um, we actually get a lot of unique inbound inquiries, um, from other developers or lenders or whatever, um, with off market deal flow that that's newer in nature and that does not really require much by way of renovation. Um, but, but, um, we will, yes. And are, um, you know, gonna, you know, buying existing, you know, eighties, nineties, whatever, and put some CapEx into it and uh, or newer and, and sort of renovated. Yeah, we like, it Sounds like it's based on o opportunities than right, than, you know, seeking to go to certain areas. I think that's right. I think that's right. Yeah. I mean, there are markets that we like, um, you know, Maricopa County, you talked about Arizona, like number one population growth market, you know, or county, you know, in the nation or whatever, like the last few years. I mean, that, that says a lot. Like people are still moving there, you know, and drove Well, we just put on our event there, so it's still fresh on my mind. You Did, yeah. Yeah. So, So Chris, you, your main property types are multifamily and self storage. What about light industrial? Do you get into that sector? Is that something that No, We try not really stick to the two verticals. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Resi and storage is, is keeping us very busy. Um, so we've been sticking to that, um, you know, mostly, yeah. Okay. Yeah. What, what are the trends you see in that, in the self storage space? We didn't talk about that as much. Clearly it's not as, yeah, Well, I don't think consuming you as much as the, uh, multifamily, but tell us a little bit about self storage. No, we love storage. Yeah. I mean, self-storage is one of the best asset classes for sure. Um, we love it. It's driven by five Ds, right? It's recession resistance, so it's driven by death, divorce, downsizing, dislocation, and then the fifth D came from COVID decluttering, and that's moving out, you know, moving out your garage or extra room for home office, home gym, whatever. Um, and so anyway, so storage, um, you know, is, is is recession resistant. And then I'll also note that the tenants are extraordinarily sticky, right? Um, so, you know, you may have a storage unit or two, or who knows, but like, you know, it's, you're in a storage unit, it's hitting your credit card every month for, you know, I'll make it up $300 or 200, whatever. And all of a sudden it goes up from two 50, let's say to like two 60. You know, you're not, and then all of a sudden it's two 70. You know what I mean? And so it's gradual, but like, you're not gonna say like, Arnie, Hey man, can you please help me pack up my storage unit and I borrow your truck and move down the street? Um, no, you probably not. You know what I mean? So it's like, dang. Yeah. The tenants are sticky. Yeah. They might move apartments and they'll still keep the storage unit. Totally. Yeah, that's true. You're A hundred percent Right, because they have, How does the pricing work when you're looking at those properties? How does that work? Well, there's something called ecr I, which is a newish concept, uh, that stands for existing customer rate increases. And, uh, what the REITs are doing right now, and everybody's kind of following suit, 'cause you kind of have to, to compete is they let people in cheaper and then they sort of turn up the heat. You know, they sort of, because, because it's a little slower of a lease up. Um, this, I'm talking about like a new facility. So, so, so a lot of times, like they'll get you in cheap and then sort of crank up the rent and bring you to market. Um, you know, you get to the same place. Um, but that's a strategy. Um, but you know, it just, you just basically, you look at the comp set to set rents and what are they charging? And you know, one of the main metrics in storage is square feet per capita, um, which is how many square feet of storage per person in a one, three or five mile range. It's a pretty straightforward metric, but if you're below 12, it's like pretty good la like, it's like seven or four, you know, depending on the market. It's very good. Um, mostly, yeah. So it's, it's, and Then the pricing on the buy side is pretty, uh, I would say probably pretty, uh, within a, a, a, a reasonable range, I would think throughout different markets on the, on the buy side when you're buying one of the properties. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It is. Yeah, that's right. And, you know, people look at s pretty stable price per foot or whatever, but Yeah. Um, and what's your yield on cost and cap rate? But yeah, it's just, it's pretty stable. Yep. Um, there's a lot of demand storage, you know, uh, storage is an asset class. It didn't used to be institutional like it is today. Uh, but really like, you know, a lot of capital's pursuing storage, even, you know, these big core funds in the Odyssey index now storage can be in the other bucket, right? And so we have a lot of, there's a lot of capital that's like, oh, we don't have any, you know, any storage. And if you look at like, the number of self storage operators nationally who are, you know, good, um, it's actually like not that many. Um, if you look at the number of multifamily operators nationally, it's a lot, right? But like, right. Um, you know, for storage, it's like not that many. So anyway, um, it's, it's, it's, it's good to be a storage guy today. Yeah. Opportunities to develop, Opportunities to develop. You can get to a seven UNT trended return on costs with storage, where you typically can't with multifamily. 'cause it's cheaper to build. You don't have to go below grade, you don't have kitchen, many windows and, um, you know, so yeah, it works well. Interesting. Yeah. Excellent sector. Well, I, I, you know, well, you know, I love, love the questions on properties and stuff. Yeah. But one of the things we're, you know, really curious about is your use of technology, some of the tech tools that you think are great right now that you've been using. Sometimes I'm a little nervous asking people about AI because we're all a little nervous and trying to figure out what, what exactly that is and how to use it. But how are you, um, you know, are some of the tech tools that you, you know, love that, uh, yeah. Yeah. Like, so this right now is actually, um, a simulation of me. It's an ai No, I'm just kidding. That's pretty good though. He's doing a good job. Really good. Yeah. Um, no, but like we, yes, the answer is yes. And, and prop tech is something we incorporate. We use AI in the workplace to, as you know, to an extent. Yes. Um, and then like at the property level, I mean like access control, you know, like we don't use the old clunky keys, you know, access control's important. Um, the ability to like, you know, program to let your house cleaner in or whatever, certain times of day with their own, with their own code and that kind of stuff. Um, like the ability for tenants to like report a maintenance issue, um, on their phone and, and, and first get through like, um, potential resolution, um, prior to, you know, sending out a maintenance person. There's, there's ways to do that and that's helpful. Um, or, or pay rent, like on their phone and like, you know, all of that. Like, yeah, it's like we try to be forward thinking on it, you know, but like security, access control, lighting, you know, audio, video, um, you know, those are all areas where we try to be at the forefront for sure. Property management, the payment. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Property management type software. How about on the deal side? CoStar? Correct. Use a lot of those for finding deals? Uh, not, not as Much. Um, honestly, a lot of it's relationship driven. It feels like. Interesting, right? Yeah. We don't really find deals there. Um, really very Broker, broker driven, broker heavy. Supposed to, Yeah. And a lot of 'em, again, a lot of these are like off market guys. Like we got a guy running around Dallas, we got a guy running around, um, who like, only does Santa Monica, let's say, right? And like, yeah, these are, and they're calling on owners and whatever. And, and then we also call on owners. Like we, we literally call mom and pop storage facilities where you guys sell. Whoa. You know what I mean? Like that's right. Um, you know, we do that. So like, yeah. Um, I think that one's more relationship than tech driven at the moment. Yeah. Excellent. Alright, now, now let's talk a little bit more about you, Chris. Any, um, personal interests, charities, hobbies? We know you're from Colorado. Are you a cop, uh, Rocky fan or a Dodger fan? Uh, you know, he's a, you know, Yeah, yeah, yeah. These are, so on the last one, I'll say this, that the short answer is Dodgers. Um, I've been here 10 years, we're in the World Series, but, um, I, I was a little bit of a Rocky fan. I lived, I lived in San Francisco when I was at PGM, um, and the Giants won Three World Series is, uh, while I was there. And that was really fun, right? Um, it's Hard to be, be a giant and Dodger fan. You can't Be both be you can't. It's, you can't. So I've converted, I made the full conversion. Um, 'cause you're correct. Um, and I am, I, I did convert. Um, you know, I'll, I'll say this, like, here's a fun fact. When I, when I was in San Francisco working at PGM, I co-founded a music festival called Snow Globe Music Festival. Wow. Uh, that took place in Southlake Tahoe. I raised the capital for that. Um, and we had 50,000 people over the three day event. Yeah. Um, it was really, really interesting. Really, really fun. It was a passion project. It was acquired by MTV in 2018. Um, that, you know, that was, that was really cool, right? So I do, I do continue to have, you know, a passion for music. That's great. Um, and, and co-founding that music festival was, was really cool. Um, you know, today we're looking at interesting ways to potentially, you know, incorporate, you know, crypto into real estate. There's, there's, there's some interesting, um, ways in which I think that can be done. Um, that's, you know, that technology. So I've been investigating that further. My wife is the CEO of a big crypto company, so that, um, you know, that helps. Um, so that's sort of interesting. I love to travel. Um, I love to go to Europe, you know, if you ask me what's your happy place? It's, you know, pro I would say, um, drinking a gin and tonic on a Mediterranean night, uh, on a cobblestone street, um, is my happy place. You know? And so like, yeah, I love to do that. Uh, what's your Favorite country in Europe? I think Spain or Portugal. Ah, really like vibe. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but I also like Italy. In Italy. Yeah. Italy is, is so much to do there. How about on the charity side? Uh, you know, if you guys are involved in a, a charity, we always like to give a little love. You know, maybe someone will get on their radar screen if you guys are heavily involved in, You know, we, we try to spread it Around a little. Yeah. Like, I, I, geez, I don't think there's one that we're like, you know, more, more involved in, but like, you know, we make our donations and, um, you know, to toy drives obviously. Right. We try to, you know, we, we, we help out a lot in the community too. So like, for example, like if we're, if we're developing a project in an area, like we don't have to do this, but like, we'll, you know, we'll wanna like, make a donation to the school or, you know, buy the kid, you know, buy new books for the kids or the library and do things in the community where we're involved. Um, because we think that's important. We know that our projects are gonna become, you know, a staple in the community and a fa part of the fabric of the community. And like, we want to give back to like, the community where we're building. Um, and so that's kind of, we think a nice thing to do. Uh, and so we make, you know, we make an effort to do that as well. Okay. Good. Excellent. Well, uh, how about speaking and playing it forward? Are you looking to hire people? And what types of people are you looking to hire? And along with that is what would be advice for someone who's starting to look out in the business today? Yeah, the answer is yes. We're always hiring. To an extent. It has slowed, you know, know because of the development slowing. Uh, but now, like, we're buying existing assets more, you know, sometimes we're hiring like finance and accounting people for the accounting team. Um, you know, we hire analysts every now and then, we just got one. He is great. But, um, you know, um, so, so the answer is, you know, we're always hiring a little bit like, oh, and if we have like a new construction job, we have an in-house gc, like, we'll, we'll wanna hire some construction people too. But, um, that ebbs and flows. But like, you know, I'd say I'd so, so yes. Uh, we are, but, um, selectively and then, you know, today, like, it just, it depends. I mean, I think for the, I I try to, you know, speak at, you know, schools, you know, U-S-C-U-C-L-A or whatever, you know, and I do. Um, and I, you know, the kids ask me that and, and I think it's, you know, get internships when you can, um, try to find mentors who can help you. Like, don't be afraid to ask for introductions and to follow up with people and ask people to coffee and, and, you know what I mean? I think you gotta be proactive and really try to build out your Rolodex. Um, and I think, you know, I think, I think that, you know, that's helpful persistence. So, you know, I think those attributes will help people today. Okay. Excellent. Good. Well, yeah, I, I think we found out a lot about you, Chris, and I think so, Yeah. We're, we're almost, uh, out of time here, but, uh, you know, a Lot. Thank you. I, I really, uh, you're a fabulous interview. I, I, we learned a lot about you and, and the company and, and everything else. And, uh, all I could say is Go Dodgers. Yeah, go Dodgers. Love it. Love It. Yeah. You know, wish you best luck, you know, I mean, you know, obviously there's still a lot more to come for you, you know, in development and, you know, different projects. So we'll definitely, uh, you know, keep looking out for the news to report about you and, and get you back on, uh, you know, in a, in a year or so. Yeah. Yeah. When, when we got a couple more, when, when that other Burbank project starts getting, uh, getting going. We'll talk a little bit more about that one. Yeah. Would love to come back. Gentlemen, thank you for having Good. No, Thank you. You've been watching Commercial Real Estate Talk with Stephen Arne, sponsored by commercial real estate inspectors, fidelity Mortgage Lenders, and Chase Partners.