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Welcome to the next episode of commercial real estate talk with Steven Arnie hosted by Steve Bloom and Arnie garfinkle. I'm Steve Bloom founder and CEO rent TV the news and media company for the commercial real estate industry now in its 24th year with our news website covering Daily News and transactions throughout the Western us as well. As our conferences throughout the California markets. We're doing our next two March 16th our Orange County state of the market conference and Inland Empire main night. So we hope to see you there and we also have the video platform where you're watching. This video called the review meant to be a search engine and viewing platform for all videos dealing with the commercial real estate industry. So with that said, let me introduce our co-host my friend the show producer or any garfinkle or any how you doing today. I'm doing good Steve Arnie garfinkle. I'm with the All-Star group and income property Lenny. We do commercial real estate loans we to do events. We have an event coming up April 27th in Anaheim at the JW Marriott Resort. But before we go any further, what about our guest today? And our sponsor Steve a great Point Arnie, you know with with the show, you know, we're really trying to get underneath the surface with some of these top level CEOs in the industry and our guest today is You know amazing for the times that we're in given all the challenges in the retail sector. We're excited that Sandy Siegel president and CEO of Newmark. Merrill companies is Going to Be Our Guest today. But before we bring him in Arnie, as you said, let's tell our audience about the sponsors that make this show possible starting with a great client of ours commercial real estate inspectors. They are in Southern California. They're skilled inspectors provide critically needed inspection information and easily understood terms as well as inexpensive Simple Solutions, whenever possible let commercial real estate inspectors help you protect your deal call Tiffany simmington. That's Tiffany simmington and book your inspection today at 818 957-4654. It's on the screen eight one eight nine five seven four six five four and who's next up Barney. Yeah. So our next sponsor is Paramount Property Tax appeal with inflation causing cap rates to increase and profit margins to decrease one way. You can fight back by appealing the property taxes. Even if you have great income you can still qualify to have your property taxes lowered find out more by calling the folks at our great client Paramount Property Tax appeal and ask for West Nichols and Code eight five eight two two five. One two hundred eight five eight two two five. One two hundred ask for West Nichols, excellent. And lastly. We've got Redwood mortgage. They are a direct private money lender with over 44 years of experience lending on commercial mixed-use multifamily and residential investment properties. Basically all the food groups loans range from $200,000. It's up to 10 million dollars and lending in the major Metro areas of California and Arizona Redwood has a long-held expertise in commercial loan transactions contact Redwood at 1-800-6596593 or www.red would mortgage.com for more information Redwood mortgage Arnie as you know, a good place to go when the banks say, no, that's right. Steve takes good care over there. Well with that business taking care of let's bring in our guests. I'm really excited to bring in Sandy Siegel president and CEO of Newmark Merrill companies. Hello, Sandy. How you doing today? Monday? Welcome one guys, Arnie Steve gosh, so good to see you guys outstanding. Well, we're excited about this interview. We've got a lot of ground to cover. So let's get right into it. Let's head off. I haven't you give us a quick overview of new Merle companies, you know, and the other businesses real estate related that you are into. Okay? Sure. Yeah happy to do it. So you more mural companies just celebrated. It's 27th year. So we've done 27 years of buying developing repositioning managing shopping centers. We're in three states. We're in Colorado. We're in Illinois and we're throughout California. We're today a size wise. We're about 92 properties about two thousand tenants, you know a couple billion dollar in asset value, and we also have a prop tech for so a company called Bright Street Ventures which invests in today just over 40 different Investments related to technology and property. Good. Hey, Sandy. I'm always somebody that wants to find out about names. Where did the name Numark Merrill come from when you started? Yeah, so um originally so I started my business at a company called West Venture that I was hired as a computer programmer. Really? Yeah. I know. I know I look so cool. It's hard to believe me as good your program blew me. I was there. Um, and I was hire doing that and then I um, you know, starting their their Shopping Center business built it up and then I bought them out when I bought them out. I wanted to use their name. They wouldn't let me do it. So, um, I needed a name in a hurry and I had done some business with that with a home builder called Newmark of Texas. So I like the name Newmark Newmark Homes in Texas and and then the company that I had started which at that point was just a few months old merged with another company called the Merrell companies and became New York, Maryland. I bought out the Merrell companies. So it's Sold now just me but it's new Mark Merrill got stuck together and I'm not a bad thing because people When We Were Young thought we might be associated with Meryl Lynch. So, you know when you don't have anything, you know, I'm a pot to piss in that's a good thing that happened. That's working. No, that's that's great. Was it reach out from the start always retail always reach out. So, so I started in a company that was a home builder and all I was doing was computerizing their accounting department. They wanted to take some of the cash. They were generating from selling homes and converted into passive income. We looked at a bunch of stuff and clean swap meets. I was 21. I would have done anything and a lot of piece of land and someone build our first Shopping Center. Okay. So now that was your first what was your first real big deal that that you felt this is the one this this where I want to be. Yeah, the first big deal we bought was in the city of Norwalk stonevolved in it Nora Town Square Rosecrans and Imperial bought that in 1986. Wow, three modeled it in 1988 through 1990. Um, all these years later so involved in it at the time was my I learned everything on that how to remodel shop centers how to community build brought in a movie theater brought in, you know, Brian Redevelopment money when it was when it was available from the state. Um, really became the center that Community that's first center where I've ever had Santa parachute in just you know, Bill jumped started there. Wow, and yeah just a great opportunity to 255,000 square feet said it was originally built in 1952. So a lot of history and it's noted if anyone's seen it it's noted because it has a hundred twenty foot tall neon sign that is From it's visible from the five freeway from the 605 and from the 91. Yeah, that wasn't really challenging giving it that year was your first deal to convince people that you could you know, take it on. Yeah, yeah, it was it was you know, I mean a little sign of the financial markets we end up putting up zero money in the deal. We got a hundred percent financing on it. Um, and it but yeah, I mean, you know that the hand at that time I then I was probably 22 23, um, you know, get give a guy that opportunity to turn that all around but and we meet plenty mistakes, but you know truthfully not knowing certain things helped us discover a lot of things we wanted to normally and it actually worked out I form a lot of relationships in the business off that project that I still have today. All right, so that being said now, I know you you manage properties as well as owning properties looking over your all of your projects throughout your career. What is your crown jewel, which is the one that really, you know, you feel boy that that was my most amazing deal I ever get Only have four kids. They're all my favorites. Right? So I have I am depends on who's in the room. I'm 92 assets and you know, they all bring a little something different and that's why I'm the business because I love every deal has something a little different. So, you know if I had a spot like so I'm not say they're my favorite because right I'm for something to miss some and then you know who's ever working on that project is gonna say, you know, give me a few just yeah, thank you speech at the awards, you know, you don't want to miss it. No. Yeah. I don't even played off the stage. I mean look, I think that Norwalk, you know is definitely you know, that first child you have and you're in here mother and you learn everything and I think that was really really meaningful my perspective. I think that Anaheim Town Square which we did and stay college and Lincoln the Redevelopment the fact that we bought it from Calpers a public pension fund who thought it was fully valued and you know, we turned totally around I think if you look at Mission Marketplace, which we bought down in Oceanside and how that was always the perennial second place in that Marketplace and we cut you know, just tenaciously built it up. So it was a leader and then, you know the center we built Village at the Peaks that we built in a Longmont Colorado, which is a deal I voted against originally when it came in and we all talked about it. It was a mall conversion tear down the mall. We build it, you know, totally retired condemnation a whole bunch of stuff, which I originally said no way I want to be involved in and I'm doing it turned out to be a great asset and is a centerpiece in that community. So, you know, I look I measure my success by do we make it impact on the community and as does the community then reciprocate by being being um, you know loyal to to our tenants there. I think we have a lot of those success. Hmm great great. Well, let me let me move into how you analyze the deals look get into your thinking there. You know, you're in Washington you start in California or Washington, Illinois. Did you when you made those moves those decisions? Were they more like you were thinking was it strategy opportunity? Where did you decide to go into those markets or were you presented with the opportunity? And then analyze those markets? Yeah. No those decisions were all made based on people. Okay, those were all people decisions. Um, they were do we have people on the ground? And by the way, we do have an asset in Washington, but really we're in Colorado and Illinois or all right. Yeah, but they were all based on do we have someone on the ground who can be that local representative and know and grew up and watch TV and read the newspaper and you know just really knows that community. And so Colorado is driven by my partner around his board who you know tragically passed away and it right after covid started and And then in Illinois was was a product of our partners over there. San Diego is a product of our part of my partner John Hickman. And so it all is a function of do we have good people on the ground who can operate a business and make those centers local and then do then once we get to that point do we believe there's a Marketplace there where we you can add value are we different than what's already there? Because if all you're going to do is go into a Marketplace and decide you're smarter than the you know, the people already live there the whole life that's not a winning formula. And so we got to commence ourselves. We bring something special to the party. Well sticking on that topic, are there other states that you're looking at right now? Yeah, for sure for sure. Yeah. I mean we like Utah I think Utah is definitely you know place where we would do more business. There's other areas in the midwest we're looking at um again, it has to be the right combination of people opportunity and also enough proximity that I want to go there on a regular basis at least once a month to see what's going on. That makes sense. Now when you find a transaction that you want to get. How do you do Finance them? Do you use that Equity? Do you get partners? I mean, what do you do when you find the product right project? How do you finance them? Yeah, we've been blessed my you know from from the very first deal I did until now we've had the same investor who's invested in almost everyone of those deals and every year we add one or two. So people we do deals with are generally family offices. We have long-term relationships with who they you know, they know us we know them Fair amounts our own money. So it's not like we're you know, we're not your typical syndicator. I mean, we don't have you know, probably I'm you know, no more than 10 investors and total that I've gone and all, you know build up this whole portfolio every once in a while. We'll partner with an institution. They bring us a deal. We'll we'll be part of that. But since we're long-term holders our best that's generally our family office. on both her own account and for others so you don't exit deals very often. You usually hold. Yeah. Yeah our average whole times 110 months. Okay. Wow. Now how do you find deals are our Brokers? Bring any deals? Are you out there? You know looking for off Market deals. How do you generally find them? Yeah every which way I mean, there's there's Few major sources first of all brokerage for sure. I mean we have a long relationship in The Brokerage Community many of our Brokers or partners with us and Deals. We love having partners of local knowledge and know what's going on and you know, so there's a lot of very great brokers who, you know come in and become part of our deals. So that's that's a great way in for us, you know, definitely we you know in any community that we're in we like to reach out to other people who have access within the community and see if they want to Seller partner with us. So we clearly we do it that way. We do, you know, we do a fair amount of female management of the theme management we do often one or two assets a year shake out where the people were managing for either need investment or need or want to sell. We're a logical buyers every right. That's either for you. Yeah, it's a great feeder and you know, we're you know, and then often someone has a busted deal. They look us up. You know. Hey, I know you're in town. I know you have this can you when you partner with us on it? And we're we do a fair amount of that. That makes sense now. Mostly you're no you say A Partners is that most of them llc's Partnerships corporations or it depends on the deal and that's how you structure. Yeah, 90 5% or LLC. I mean it generally generally we're the manager we come in we form an independent, you know as we you know and SP and we, you know their individually Finance everything. Now, how can somebody invest with you or you kind of like? Go ahead kind of closed off from what you said in there other answer. How do you know? Yeah, I mean generally look if there's a reason that that there's someone who can invest and they had valued to us and we had value to them, you know, there's many opportunities when that happens, but generally what happens. Is it either related to someone we've already done done business with or they're in a community and they own a center or they have an opportunity. They want to you know, put the but you know, they're maybe their asset together with our expertise or they want to add some Capital to a situation and their particularly plugged in that's where that happens. So the Army and Steve fund we're out of luck now. Yeah, I make exception you guys are sort of like brothers. So you're related. Yeah. Hi guys. You're next Steve. Well, you know, let's get into one of the things before we get into your current deals. How what are your thoughts you get involved heavily in like architecture probably on the construction side, obviously with you know, the cost and everything, but how hope you froze there Steve froze up. He didn't I not architecture and construction I think is what he wants to know. How do you get involved in those areas? Yeah, um and Steve you froze, but I think you unpros because you're blinking now or or you had to be on a stroke. So so the the you know, the truth is anything I do does deals with the place making of the of the center. I I try to be very involved so that that includes architecture that includes signage. I'm definitely signage that includes anything that we consider environmental creation lighting accents music, um, you know, everything related related to that. Um, and we spend a lot of time on that we spend more time on that then prop until we launch probably than anything else. Okay, why should a tenant be here? Why would the customer want to visit that tenant is the thing we're asking ourselves. In fact, you know that goes to things like what's with the sidewalk and how does a lighting work at night? And you know, what he what are you doing? You know, what's that? What are the messaging you're doing at the street level and the sidewalk? All and the parking lot level to get people to want to come and you start there and then you build back until gay once we're built. What's our storyline is it you know is is neighborhood oriented is community with larger Community orientated. Um, and then how do we get your your Majors to play ball? So they at least represent, you know our consistent with their our theme yeah. That's a that's a big mission before we build in. All right, good answer. I was gonna the next person I was gonna ask is you know, let's get into your current deals. Right? So tell us about some of your active, you know recent acquisitions or you know, I think you've got a major project going on in the IE so tell us about some of the current things you've got going on. Yeah. I mean we Truly guy an awful lot going on we have right now. We're building a brand new center in the city Rialto second phase and Center. We build a few years ago. A lot of people may not know where reality is but Rialto is kind of launch between let's call it the the 10 freeway and the 210 above it and this is so wedge in there in the 15 sort of to the East and so it's Boxed In by the by those freeways. We did the first large skill development in South Rialto, which was a super Walmart and some pads and some restaurants and things like that subsequent. We made a deal with the city to develop the parcel right next to it, which is the first phase done. What year was that? Oh right dating myself, but let's call it 20 16 17. Okay, right just 13 years to build because yeah all sorts of challenges, but we got it done and then we you know, we Developed this Center which by the way got 100% lease during covid. So we were a hundred percent pretty least from covid Sprouts Burlington Five Below Ulta, um, you know, just just a great setup in and out burger and you know, the all the usual everybody's um, and you know, great great setup, um, kind of a farmer kind of theme we're doing there. Um, but you know, really cool bright colors, it's nice and we're we're well under construction. We'll probably be delivering it rains didn't help the holiday April May kind of time frame. Um, so super super excited about that. It's only ground totally ground up and we finished a we've just finished building. We've done a number of Burlington. So we just converted on the shopping center in Chicago. A lot of it. The center has a high-end grocer there Mariano's we At a Burlington we added a Planet Fitness. We added a Chuck E cheese balloon or not. We added a Hobby Lobby leased all that Center up. We're finishing the Burlington as as we speak right now conversion of an old Kmart. So, you know really kind of cool took it took an old Kmart broken into TJ Maxx home goods Burlington. So that one that was in Bloomingdale, right? So super cool there. We took an old what was an Old Meyer Grocery Store in Melrose, Illinois, and we just turned that into we sold 60,000 of that into a Cermak grocer a big local Hispanic high-end roads are very nice grocer. Um, At a Ross and a bunch bunch of others a Ross of Burlington in a number of other tendons in that Center. So yeah, we have a big remodel that we're doing doing over there worked out really. Well, we're finishing a remodel and a retentity of a large box in Sacramento where we added a school. So we put in a UEI school DD's built a pad on the corner with a you know, Starbucks and a whole bunch of tenants over there. Um, and you know Englewood we did a huge remodel of our Center in Inglewood on on crunch on Imperial, um torn down some buildings built a Planet Fitness, um added a bunch of restaurants the basement of what was a kind of a vacant first floor of office building on the property and I'm sure I'm missing just a ton of stuff. Oh we're looking at converting a movie theater. To a into some apartments and we're converting a Marshals and Thousand Oaks. We're converting to Marginal Thousand Oaks to a 218 unit Hotel. Wow. Yeah, I saw that. I mean that that's out by where I live. I know the chance. That's well. Yeah chance workplace Yeah couple quick follow-ups for you on that Sandy. What what are the made major differences? You see in Illinois in the market there whether it's rental rates lease up versus California and use outside brokers for your Lisa or is it all in-house in Illinois? Yes, generally everywhere else no Sacramento. Yes, because we have an incredible team up in Sacramento. So generally in-house, you know, I will tell you that the difference between Chicago and here California, you know isn't as pronounced demographics are very similar. The densities are very similar. I mean, obviously the weather is a much bigger factor. I mean, you know right weather just you know, but you know, I gotta tell you the people the Midwest are you know, they're pretty rugged group, right? So they they shop our you know, I mean it rains I guarantee you in a Range here are traffic suffers more than when it snows there. Oh and you know, look, there's you know, you get you look taxes are different there. So you got to be very aware about how they how they deal with private tax operating costs. No removals. Not a factor here knows at any center. It's 25,000 bucks. So you got those those kinds of things but you know, Good people loyal Shoppers, you know, very depending where you go, very ethnic which for us plays right into what we liked to do. So, yeah, I love that market, right? Building on that. What are you finding some of the challenges right now with interest rates cost of labor cost of materials, you know, obviously strategy has changed in the last six months or so. What do you see? Yeah, it's top look it sucks because you got a lot of things going in a time where we're trying to level out. We're trying to figure out covid right? So covid obviously destroyed us right and then climb out of that and you get this kind of a rational zuberance coming out of covid with all the stored up capital and people coming back and you know, really the shopping environment, you know, really thriving and so you go from that into this, you know, as soon as you start getting the wind under your sales and you know, all sudden you're you know wages start going up and so it's hard to hire people. So you have as big influx of people coming out of covid and then you can't hire people and now people you do hire, you know, you provide bad customer service and it just and then now people come back and they say like, maybe I don't want to go back to retails quickly as I did because I'm I don't like the way I'm being treated and then you know, you end up having security concerns, which should become a much bigger Factor just generally overall anyway and the cost of you know, hiring security and keeping that in place and then Role in that you know interest rates now, make sure you don't affect us as much at least right now because mainly we borrow long term and so luck lucky for us. We have we have long-term maturities on most of our debt, but if you you know, you want to buy something where you want to you know, develop like anytime or developing and we are construction loans your cost to borrowings crazy. And then you add on to that the increase in materials and material showers. It's just super super super difficult to plan things out that things you worry about in a normal World, which is how do you least? How do you design how to get entitled all those things? You still have those things and then you later on all this now. I got everybody but can I give Americans or can I afford to build the building? It's so many deals don't work anymore. So yeah, it's it's difficult. It's very difficult. And California in particular doesn't have the tools to offset that they don't have Redevelopment or tax increment funding or other tools other governments. Is to to help get things built when they should get built when there's a mismatch between costs and income. Okay, but having said that you're still on that buyer in California once you say developer sure sure, but look we're not buyers because we believe in the fundamentals of our business retail and we think we bring something to the table. But that doesn't mean I'm the net buyer, you know, just whatever the price is. I'm in that buyer or this scenario. The scenario that says my costs are gonna be higher my insurance are gonna be higher and I can pay to get a yield based on that. I can't pay a yield based on what I could pay, you know, two years ago three years ago. So, you know anytime there's a disconnect in the market, which is right. Now we're sellers say well not on my property has always been six camp and now seven cap. Takes a while to make that difference. But yeah, we're in that buyer. And what was your I know we've talked about the finance but typical LTV on your deals. No, 65 to 70, you know, our major lenders or life insurance companies. John Hancock's by Farm artists life insurance company. They're very relationship. They've been fantastic. They're very very gonna work with you know, but yeah 60 60 70 percent is probably very fast. Yeah. That's that's the number it's not overly aggressive and you know, it's it's and that's you know, and you have a relationship with with a lender like that. It's it's almost like You know, I'm not quite a rubber stamp, but they know what you're capable of and they adapted accordingly, you know, I want to ask you something about retail Trends obviously Amazon is done a number on a lot of retailers out there. But what tenant uses are you finding like theaters working with cities what new amenities you offering? You know, what are the some trends that you're seeing right now and most of your centers Well, I mean here here's what here's what we say. I think people love going out and shopping and I think covid did exact opposite where people were Fair. We thought covid could be I never thought but people thought covid's the final Neil mccoffin Amazon's got you know online shopping's got all the momentum. It's just taking away market share. And now we're you know, we're saying if you leave your house you can die. So you might as well just ordered delivered right? I mean, this was the dynamic that we all right and your groceries. Yeah. Yeah that was supposed to just kill, you know reach home total. Well, it didn't do any of that right people with so they were locked up. They said well, where can I go the you know where they went with shopping right? I mean they went out and and you know, and that was eating that was clothing that was closer, you know, all that stuff, um, believe it or not. I mean old covid, you know, they when they open things up and you said you can go back to the gym even those a lot of risking at the gym, you know, you recovered 50% of your Take that first week, maybe got up to 75 in the second week. Um, and you know people came back I think a little longer to get to that last, you know that 90% 95, you know, I think you know, there's fun things but I think people want to shop I think what people decided though is they don't just shop one way. I mean, you know, it's not all online. It's not all in person, you know people allocate how they shop and some are a little more online and a little less in person some are you know a lot more in person and a little less online. What happened, you know, so what the customers do and I think is making this decision one is where do I really need to shop where you know for my Necessities? How much kind you online and how much can I do in person to what I like to go? How do you combine the entertainment Factor the social factor with shopping? Okay and which which places give me that opportunity and then you know, where do I feel appreciated where I feel I'm getting back. Where's the altruistic side of what I'm doing? You got to put that all together and hopefully what that does is that concentrates that shopping into centers that you know best identify each one of these things you feel good being there you feel like you feel like you're doing good by being there you feel like it's fulfilling a need and by the way, if there's online maybe I can do my online there too. So just pick it up and make my life more efficient. So I think those are very big factors that you that are definitely surprising customer service is something you just got to keep your eye on because the big difference between Online and in person is customer service online just doesn't give you the touchy feelings or make you feel good or impact your heart. You know, it's you know online shopping is a headspace deal not a hard space deal. So, you know you you got to do that. Um, but yeah, they're you know, those are the places where we're focusing our energy. What's your thought on theaters? You think movie theaters you think people you know, that's an interesting. I think you've got a couple in your Center centers whether you yeah, well eaters. Um, and look I think that I think this applies to all retail, but certainly it's flight of theaters. We we are too many theaters overall. Okay, and the in that and the ear industry is particularly Hostage to product and product that is exclusively available to them. Right? So, you know, yeah, you know, you can only imagine if you had a clothing store the clothing store only can take Goods or exclusive to them that you couldn't buy anywhere else. Okay, and the model was that you know, you share so much of your Revenue with that supplier and you know, and you know, it's just a very difficult Dynamic they're facing now so, you know, do I think theaters are done? No, I think people there's Certain movies you go to that you need a theater experience or I think you know you I imagine years and years ago when movie theaters came out they said well there go stage, right. Is there anymore right? Yeah. So lucky you you have to you have to adjust but I think for the right movies with the right, you know contracts that go with those those movies, you know, you're gonna have you're gonna have a theater business is it gonna be the experience, you know of a big theater for certain types of movies? Yeah. Yeah and look, you know, I was just at a thing the other day the streaming model does not make economic sense. So it's it's been great. Um, it's been awesome and there's been a shitload of product. I I don't know if you use those words on this we won't believe here by the FCC so, you know streaming product. First of all, you know, which show do you watch? I mean there's a zillion of those but Netflix doesn't make money okay. So I mean it was back to what Amazon was. Yeah, they were generating tons of Revenue. We're making money although the report today was all the new users you see the positive report on Netflix today. Yeah, but think your mouth. Okay, so so not you just look at any go. There's going to be some consolidation. They're not just streaming goes away because of course it doesn't go away. It's it's you know, it's definitely a platform the way outlines not go anywhere. It's gonna continue to grow and streaming will grow but you it has its role. Um, you know, by the way, there's still believe it or not. There's still a channel two four and seven rights regular TV too. And you have you have a theater Distribution Hub and you just gotta look at it that way and see what's the right size for this Evolution. That's all and there are certain movies. You can't I mean they look so much different when you go to the theater then then if you wait to see it on you no matter how big the screen is in your house. Yeah. Yeah. Okay laugh with people social believe me. There's a place where I'm not ready to bury the whole the whole industry. I think it's transitional you're gonna have to you know, you have to write signs right interesting study. Well shifting gears a little bit saying I know you've been big with technology, you know, tell us a little It you know about your endeavors there and how you see technology and retail check out automation customer tracking. Yeah. Yeah. Look, I'm I'll tell you this. I was one of the In the business, I probably one of the earliest people in technology because I started programming when I was 12. Okay, you do the math computer programmer and I wrote a lot of software, you know back then this is before Excel even and everything else unique background for Real Estate. We'll give you background, I mean didn't make me popular with the ladies but It goes back then, um, you know, and you know fast forward to 2007-2008, you know, which you know, it's hard to believe that's right 15 years ago, but we looked at we looked at what's going on and how the markets were starting to do, you know, you know 2007 people forget 2007. We were hyperventilated as far as our growth and cap rates and everything else what people are paying for assets that it was telling us that we were we were over extended and so it's in 2007 when we started this company called Bright Street Ventures, which was designed to use software. Whatever is available at the Shelf at the time plus stuff. We've created in house to monitor, you know sales traffic. What are what our managers were telling us. We didn't have a lot of the tools we have today, but at least put them in all one place so we can look sensibly what what we were being told at the street level and it's objective and objective way and just combine them and we Started, you know some with some stuff then we invested in a company called daytex which Consolidated a lot of data and used our accounting data and just raise the visibility data. So it wasn't just a CEO who would be looking at data, but rather an entire organization was looking at data and then over time. We started investing in three different three different ways. We build companies technology companies that we thought would help our business. We found other we found technology that was being used in other space and bring it over and invest in it in a heavy way and taking advisory positions with it or we would just be an investor smaller investor in technology. We tried out at our centers that we believed in and invest in it. And today we have, you know, something like 40 something technology Investments, you know have have a number of you know platforms that have gotten pretty widespread adoption. And and we spent a lot of time making sure the entire organization uses. This is I don't realize it was that extensive. That's great. Congratulations. Yeah, that's a man expensive. So but it's you got to do it and you know, you know, they say, you know in the land of the blind the one I man is King there was a time and you know, we continues to Move there was a time when we'd be the only ones who had you know, really good sales analysis. Let me make sure a lot better buyer much better, you know less or makes you a lot much better manager makes you much better today, you know, like if you've heard a Placer, you know today everybody knows where the stores are range relative to well, you know, five years ago six years ago going on when we got involved with them knowing it we would know I mean but no everyone knows so you have to evolve past that find different tools that help you of all beyond that. Um, but no technology is the key to and we're really help drive through these more difficult times because we have an instant visibility which you never had before real estate real estate never had instant visibility. Yeah, right Sandy. What kind of advice would you give to somebody was starting out? Now in this industry, let's say if you started today. Yeah, well, I think I need a couple things. I think the skill set is different that you need I think you know definitely understanding technology is big and understanding data is big. In retail we throw off a lot of data that most people and you know, whether that's 51% or 60% 80% I don't know but a lot of people are generally skilled and reading and understanding what it means I'd say, you know understand what your tenants are telling you and and what your dad is telling you things very valuable. I think in retail there's endless opportunity for successful Generations because we always evolve So it is not like a business where you go, like, you know, I'm sort of sort of stagnant business. You know, what am I gonna do that? Sandy didn't already do well. Sandy did any looked at it through one lens the lens keeps changing. Some super excited for people want to come in there, but I think you gotta get on the ground floor and you gotta understand what makes tenants and retailers successful communities, and if you understand that and how to appeal to the customer, you're going to be a good developer. So for 22 year old Sandy seago came to you as you are today as you were back then and asked you for money. Would you give it to um Yeah, I mean it depends how cool he was. You know, I mean not my church bucket all the way up to here. I mean, you know showed a little more job. Okay? Yeah, I I you know, excuse me enough. I probably more qualified to be starting the news today. Then I was for qualified just trying to business back then back then I just do I just was want to work my ass off. You know, I I had the computer background with helped a little back then it helps a lot more now, um, but you know and I was you know, I grew up in in very ethic areas. And so, you know, I understood the needs of those kinds of communities, you know, not that I can speak for all kinds of communities, but I understood it how I grew up and wear shopping fit in for me and it wasn't as competitive as maybe as today. Um, so yeah. Yeah, but I like to think so, you know, let's talk about that, you know talk about I mean, I see you truly believe in giving back to the community and you're very involved in a lot of community activities and the Boys and Girls Clubs and tell us a little bit about that and and what you do and and what how you truly believe in doing that. Yeah, so, you know when I was when I was seven my parents were divorced. I was brought up on my mom my mom, you know was you know single parent I don't work full time. So, you know, I grew up in an environment where me and my brother who was two years younger than me. We're left alone all day. We walked to school. We walked home. We wait till six cuz she came home. We were in a neighborhood all the kids did that all the kids had different situations, you know, and um, you know, I learned You know, I learned a lot of good things. I learned some not so good things back then and I was taking in by Jewish Big Brothers Big Sisters, and they sent me to a camp rat rescue during the summer called at the time Camp Max trousers now called Camp Bob Waldorf and those counselors were my first mentors. I learned to swim there and horseback ride and do a bunch of other things and But but I learned mentorship. I learned the value of wow, if someone's someone's there for you know, those counselors probably 18 19 years old, but you know, I'm seven so, you know, so they have that is part of you know your background, like wow people, you know, really make a difference in people's lives and I continue to have that experience of as I got older finding people made time for me and give me a chance and when I got in this business was 20 and um, you know, Bob Miller who was my first real estate job, you know hired me give me a chance, you know, these are all people who you know stuck their necks out just a little bit to help somebody who's young find their way and so that's always stuck with me that's always stuck with me. And so as soon as I could I started giving back a little um, and and God I've had a lot of opportunity. So so, you know, you know, I didn't go back to Camp Max Trouse until I was probably 24 25 and then I just you all came back, you know all All experiences so I got very involved there. I got on the board and Florida Juiceman brothers and I just took over as president of the board of Jewish Big Brothers Big Sisters. So that's that's an incredible, you know thing for me. I mean just imagine, you know, right but you want to give that feeling once you've given a little and you see how how you can change people's lives. You just want to do it over and over just infectious. Um, so I'm very passionate about that. I'm very passionate about the homeless and the inner house and getting people out don't believe that any society can longer survive, you know, when there's two classes of people one who are housed one that are the ones that are housed viewed as somehow second class citizens because their fault they're on the street because it isn't um, you know, yes, there's drugs yes or alcohol. Yes or that but you know people don't know that, you know, two thirds of people on the street are different totally economic reasons, you know, they just see the mental illness and the others totally involved in there Big believer mentorship. I Mentor one or two young adults every year, you know and I stay in touch with the old Mentor mentees. I've had I think that that's huge and and to come this company believes. We're in 90 communities. We owed to those communities get back so during covid we had we had a huge campaign about giving back and you know having you know for senior shopping for for, you know, homeless or under housed or students teachers for First Responders. We had a big program around that continuing on a big program around that um people in the company here. We you know, we just came from a school a small private school and Inglewood and you know gave out Christmas backs and them for survival and for you know for increasing the number of students they can take it's just it's a constant thing we believe and it's it's symbiotic relationship between being in communities and giving more than taking. Yeah outstanding. Yeah, great. Well, you know we're getting to the close here Sandy and we really appreciate the time and sharing all this, you know about your your life and your thoughts about the industry. You know one last question. I had you know, just to close it. How about personal goals for you anything, you know beyond real estate and we're within real estate. What's your personal goals over the next couple years? Well, look, I I vote for you. If you're you know thinking about anything that I don't know as you probably know I'm very involved in the political landscape, you know, you know one pitch I always make is in the real estate business. We are the worst of all the major industries and working with our local governments to Heart of the solution and helping them identify your covid. It was so visible. So I spend a lot of time, you know with the California Assembly and said it spend a lot of time on the Congressional Federal side was, you know, very involved in talking to everybody including the now speaker about, you know, covid relief and what that Jobs what that should look like? I'm so I'm very involved there. But no, I you know, I have too many skeletons in my closet to everyone you personally, you know, I climb kill a Majora once with my oldest son. I'm planning climbing it again with my youngest son of my youngest daughter and my wife I have a new wife. So I'm super excited about that. Congratulations and Whitney's on my bucket list. Now. I need holds out. He's with these little tougher right check how much are so but right now yeah, you know and look I'm serious about finding Solutions the homeless, I want to get more homeless housing, California. So I think that's a that's a critical critical thing that all right. That's what that very important. Well Sandy. Thank you very much for spending time with us. I think we all found out a little bit more about you about new Merrell and where you got started and where going and we really appreciate it. That's what these things are all about. Wish you the best with all these properties the new Rialto Center and all your personal Endeavors, you know. Thank you very much for what you're doing. Thanks, Steve. Thanks already. I really appreciate it. Thanks, Steve. Take care, Sandy. All right. You've been watching commercial real estate talk with Steven Arnie sponsored by commercial real estate inspectors Redwood mortgage and Paramount Property Tax appeal.