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Hey, welcome to this new episode of Commercial Real Estate Talk with Steven Arne, where we have what we hope to be interesting and compelling conversations with leaders in the commercial real estate industry. And I'm very excited about today's show 'cause I've known our guest a while. He is both an owner and broker of commercial properties throughout Southern California, and he is the host of his own show about real estate. So he's kind of an inspiration to us. And that is Barry Seitz, president of Seitz Properties and the Seitz Company. But before we bring in Barry, let me first introduce myself and my co-host. I'm Steve Bloom, founder and c e o of Rent tv, the news and media company for the commercial real estate industry, mostly throughout the west. Now in our 24th year with our news website, rent tv.com, daily news about deals and developments and our conferences and our video platform, the review, which is where you're watching this video. And now let me introduce my co-host, the show producer, my good friend Arnie Garfinkel with the Allstar Group. Hey Arnie, how are you today? Good, How you doing, Steve? Uh, great. Tell us about Allstar Group. Well, yeah, Arnie Garfinkel, the Allstar Group. What we do is we do commercial real estate, uh, loans mainly. And we also do events. We produce a number of events, uh, involving commercial real estate throughout the state of California and the West Coast. Uh, and, uh, we just, uh, have something to tell. We've got a couple of events coming up, uh, together in November, which we should tell the audience about. Well, uh, we're doing, uh, one of our signature events, the lawmakers forum, uh, in expo down in Carlsbad at the Western Carlsbad Resort on November 8th. That is where you can meet with, uh, 15 to 20 lenders. Uh, they're all on stage. They tell you what they can do, and you can literally present loans live to them during the event. But before that event, on November 8th, we have another event with, uh, Steve, the Rent tv, state of the market of San Diego. That's right. November 7th at the same same venue that West in Carlsbad. Great venue in the afternoon, the day before yours from about 1230 till about five 30, we're gonna have office panel, retail, multifamily, industrial, and finance for San Diego, followed by a cocktail party where everyone gets to mingle and meet the folks at your event, our event. And it'll, uh, be a great event, which we hope to grow into a much bigger deal. And, uh, tell the, tell the audience a little bit about Cal N B a. You were at Kreft last week in Vegas. Yeah. What was the out there like? Uh, I was at ca you know, it was, uh, pretty well attended. Uh, the, it was, uh, cautiously optimistic. Um, there were a lot of people there that were there to try to get deals done. Uh, but, uh, overall I think the mood was, was, uh, you know, uh, a little bit More velocity. People were covering from the interest rate hikes, starting to figure it out. Exactly. I mean, look, it was reality. This is what, this is what we are. We know the cycles. We know what's happening. Uh, you know, there were a couple of people in there that had a tagline, uh, survive until 25, but, you know, right. Every bank and, and has their own thing. But you know what, let's move with the show. We have some sponsors here, don't we? Right. Another piece of business to take care of some, some sponsors who could help some of our clients get through these tough times. And the first one is, uh, commercial real estate inspectors. Arnie, they are an awesome company in southern California. Their skilled inspectors provide critically needed inspection information in easily understood terms, as well as inexpensively simple solutions. Whenever possible, let commercial real estate inspectors help you protect your deal. Call Tiffany Sim Simington anytime to book your next next inspection today. Again, Tiffany Simington at 8 1 8 9 5 7 4 6 5 4 8 1 8 9 5 7 4 6 5 4. The info's on the screen. Yes. And our, our next sponsor is Paramount Property Tax Appeal with inflation causing cap rates to increase and profit margins to decrease. One way you could fight back is by appealing the property taxes. Even if you have great income, you could still qualify to have your property taxes lower. The deadline to file is November 30th. Call 8 5 8 2 2 5 1 200. That's 8 5 8 2 2 5 1 2 0 0. Ask for West Nichols with Paramount Property Tax Appeal. Excellent. And then the last one who keeps the show alive on is Redwood Mortgage. Redwood is a direct private money lender with over 44 years of experience lending a commercial mixed use, multifamily and residential investment properties. Loans range from $200,000 to 10 million lending in the major metro areas of California and Arizona. Redwood has a long held expertise in commercial loan transactions. Contact Redwood at 1 806 5 9 6 5 9 3, or www.redwoodmortgage.com for more info. As they say, Arnie a good place to go when the banks say no, Redwood Mortgage, you know, and with that said, now let's get to our show. Really excited. I can't contain myself, so let's not wait any longer. Let's bring in Barry Sitz of the Sitz Company. Hey, Barry, how you doing today? Hey, Barry, you got it? Okay. Uh, welcome Barry. Nice to have. Hey, welcome Barry. Yeah, thanks for having me on. I appreciate it. Great To see you again. Always. Well, Barry, give us an overview of the Seitz, uh, company, uh, as far as your brokerage vis and how, how the company, uh, what it's all about. Yeah, So I, I guess the nickel version of, uh, the Seitz Company and how it came about is that, uh, I started working in commercial real estate, uh, here in southern California in October of 1989. The commercial real estate market crashed in November of 1989, so it was perfect timing for me. Uh, and, uh, I worked for, uh, another real estate company called Howard Ecker and Company, which was a tenant representation company, tenant specific. So we represented, uh, tenants and users of commercial real estate and, uh, obviously difficult task if you're just getting into the business and the market tanks right when you get in. Um, but, uh, it gave me the ability to really work through some difficult times and try and understand how to, uh, deal with the market and deal with people. And, and then when companies and businesses are struggling, they actually want some help. And so it was a good opportunity. And so, um, if we fast forward through that, uh, downturn in the real estate market in 1994, I purchased the West coast operations of Howard Ecker and Company. I changed the name to the Woods Company so I wouldn't forget where I worked and made it easy. And, uh, we continue to do the same thing in terms of representing tenants and users of commercial real estate. And so, uh, we are a, uh, what I'll call full service real estate brokerage company, except that we really just represent tenants and users. So you don't see a lot of say what's company signs on properties, because those are typically the people that would represent the landlord or the building owner. We represent the folks who are inside those buildings. Well, You know, I was re the partners for a couple years before rent tv, so I know the tenant rep, the tenant rep deal, so, yeah. And so, and Howard Eckrin company was one of the very first right, uh, tenant representation companies in the country. Uh, and at that time, the concept was pretty foreign and you had to explain it to people. People didn't understand the difference or why there was a conflict of interest, right? So, so no different than buying and selling a house where you have someone whose name is on the sign that says for sale, and then you come along to purchase the house. The seller pays both brokerage fees except that the person or the company who's representing the buyer is looking out for their best interest, trying to get them the best deal. And the person whose name is on the sign is trying to sell or lease the property and try and get the, the seller or the landlord the most amount of money possible. And so you have diametrically opposed. And so if you have the same broker representing both sides of the equation, there's just a conflict. I mean, it's no different than going to court and, you know, you're getting divorced and you hire your, your spouse's attorney to represent both parties. Somebody's gonna get screwed at the end of the day, and you just never do that. And, and so there was opportunity for the concept of the company. There was opportunity for the company to be able to grow, and we tried to take advantage of that. So we started doing business with companies that had locations or were headquartered in Southern California, and the company would say, Hey, you did a good job for me in Los Angeles. What do you know about Atlanta? What do you know about Nashville? And I'd say, I don't know much about Atlanta, I don't know much about Nashville, but I do know, I do know what you want in the real estate transaction. I do know we have a relationship, and I do know that we have the capacity to negotiate a good deal for you wherever it is. We just have to apply the specifics of that particular market or sub-market to your particular deal. And so company said, look, I trust you, you did a good job for me here. Go ahead. And then we found ourselves doing business in a bunch of other cities around the country that we weren't based in, that we really weren't experts in the market, we're experts in real estate negotiations and experts in structuring transactions. The problem was we needed local market expertise. And so in the mid 1990s, 19 95, 96, 97, 98, I formed an organization called the Core Network, C O R E, that was based on the fundamentals of the National Football League. So the National Football League is the umbrella organization that oversees all the teams and it governs all the teams. The N F L is a 5 0 1 c three nonprofit organization. It doesn't make money, but hopefully all the teams, I'm certain they do make a lot of money. And so in our case, we structured an umbrella organization where local and regional real estate firms could join this umbrella organization and be able to refer business back and forth in, in other parts of the country. They could share information, they could pull their resources for best practices, for economies of scale, for things like insurance or other purchases of software. And so we grew this organization, you know, very quickly and, and, and I really had two jobs in, in those days. I would come into the office at six o'clock in the morning, start calling presidents and owners of real estate companies on the east coast or in the Midwest interviewing them and explaining to them the concept of the organization. And then we would have conferences and people would come from all over the country and they liked it. And it was a good sell and it would made sense for lots of companies. And we grew from myself and one other firm here in southern California where we started to, uh, 80 firms in over 120 cities throughout the United States, uh, including Canada, Mexico, we had affiliates in Europe and Asia as well at the peak. And we had a full staff running the organization. Um, and we were doing business as the sitz company in 20 or 25 states at any given time. Uh, and as of today, we are doing business all over the country. Um, and we have done business in all 50 states. How many, uh, how many agents do you have in your office now? So, you know, we have in total with the company, so it's a little bit different structure, right? Right. Total with the company. We have, uh, in excess of 50, uh, staff in total. In terms of brokers, it's a different setup. So when you compare it to a major brokerage company, uh, ALA C B R E or a Cushman and Wakefield or a J L L, some of these bigger national brokerage companies, our goal is never to compete with them. Uh, my goal was never to be the largest, uh, company and, and do that. Our goal was to provide good service to our clients. And so when I started to transact business, I figured out pretty quickly that I was pretty good at digging up business, and I was also pretty good at doing the business, but not everybody is an expert at digging up business and what I'm gonna call make rain. And not everybody is a good transactionalist, and not everybody is a good data analysis, right? So there are a lot of different skills that go into being a good real estate broker other than just getting lucky or, or having a friend of yours that gives you a deal and you make some money. And so what I found was in those early 1990s when the market stunk and, and I went and interviewed with a bunch of different firms, I interviewed with all those big companies and I said, how do you guys go about getting new business? How do you guys, guys go about doing business in markets that you really are not experts in? So if I had a deal in Ontario, I didn't even know where Ontario was at the time, and it was out in the sticks, and I didn't know the market out there at when I first started, but I could figure it out. But that was not the ideal way to do it. And so the answer that I got back from all these other brokerage companies was, there wasn't a good answer. It was, Hey, we just kinda wing it. And so nobody said, Hey, we're experts in everything. Hey, Well, speaking of winging, it's kinda like what we do on this show, kind of, right? Hey, I do, I do have a bunch to get. We do it. We, you gotta get through some things with you, Barry. So let me, let me move forward a little bit. So are you doing most, and I wanna move to the, to the other side. So let's fast Forward to today. So today you're Doing mostly office industrial on the tenant side, Right? So today we've comprised a team, and the team is like a pyramid uhhuh. And so we have senior brokers who handle the negotiations and the transactions. We have junior brokers that do market research and background. We have a marketing department that deals with development of new business, and then we have back office staff that deals with it. So it's not, it's a team approach. It's a pyramid approach. It's not a bunch of brokers running around eating what they kill at the end of the day. So the question, and so Property Type, yeah. So, so in terms of the focus, yeah, we do office, we do industrial, we do, uh, uh, a bunch of different medical, uh, and then, um, we do high-end retail and specialty use. And then, um, we also, uh, in a different sector do, uh, multi-family acquisitions as well. So we're not doing donut shops if we're not doing an ice cream parlor. On the retail side. Um, our focus is typically on the middle to larger size transactions. Um, and, uh, but we do it all over the country. And then obviously focus predominantly in Southern California. Right. Well, let's shift over to the investment side, right? You got, you got the, the ownership side. So how, how, tell us about, uh, sandwich properties. Yeah, so as I started growing the brokerage business, we started making more deals. We started bringing on more people. And in the brokerage business, if you make a deal, you make a commission, and if you don't make a deal, you make zero. And so there are ebbs and flows and people's income go up and down, which is not for everyone. And it's very difficult to run a business. When you bring on this other staff that I mentioned, those people typically work on a salary basis, so they wanna check every two weeks, and you need cashflow to be able to pay those people. And so when I looked at it, I said, gee, I need to be able to supplement these ebbs and flows in the brokerage business with some kind of cashflow. So I started buying multifamily apartment properties and in hopes that people would pay their rent every month, and then you'd have cashflow every month. So, I mean, It's not every day you have like a off, like a great office broker, tenant rep guy who becomes a major investor in multi-family properties. Well, It started out as a, as a side gig. And it started out, I made a deal, I made some extra money, I had some extra money laying around. And in fact, the way it came about initially was I lived at the beach in Newport Beach, and a place on the next street over came available for sale. And so I bought it, and the rent was very low, and the tenants didn't take care of the property. So we got rid of the tenants, we remodeled it. And again, I had two jobs, right? So after I built the core network, I didn't have a second job. So my new second job was I would go at six in the morning, meet with contractors, get them set out for what they were doing, go do the brokerage, and then come back at five or six o'clock and see what these guys built or did. So, and that, That then became its own animal. So one property became three properties, became 10 properties, and today, say, which properties owns more than a hundred multifamily properties throughout southern California? That, And that became your cash flow. I mean, this, and that Became the cash that also became a source of other headaches and other drama and things that go along with it as you grow the business. But that became the cash flow that offsets the brokerage. Yeah. So what was your first big deal? What was the one that put you on the map if you had to look back and say, okay, this was the one that really got me going? Yeah, I, I don't know if there was like one deal where I made this deal and then that was the end of it. Uh, you'd like to think that you have a pipeline and, and you don't hang your your whole year on one deal. That's a bad business philosophy. Well, It, it's more, it's more, more like which, which is the one, which is the deal that you started. See, I have like, like you said, properties, you started investing and, and you found, hey, this is a side gig, and all of a sudden it became your cash flow. I mean, would that be the one that set your path or would there be another transaction that you say, you know what, this is where I'm going? Yeah, I mean, I look on the property side. You, you did one, you did another one, and then all of a sudden, the sudden you wake up and go, holy cow, I I need a leasing person, right? I need a construction person. I I need a full-time plumber. I, I need a handyman. And so that became its own sort of business on its own, right? On the brokerage side, you know, we had a couple of, um, relationships early on where we did some deals for some companies that were very large companies that had locations all over the country. And even when I went to them and said, how are you handling the real estate? They did not have a solid plan. They were wasting a lot of money. And so I would tell you, we had relationships with a company back in the day called Mailboxes, et cetera, which ultimately got bought by the United States Postal Service, which at the time had, uh, about a thousand locations all over the country. And they had no real estate program in place. And, and we became their national real estate vendor, and then all of a sudden started doing deals. While they weren't big deals, there was large volume of deals. Uh, we did work for Uni Globe Travel, who had 400 locations around the country. We did work for 30 plus years for a company called Applied Industrial Technologies out of the Midwest. And, and the way we got involved with them was, you know, I just started cold calling the guy and I cold called the head of real estate. And that, you know, these, these are good success stories for hard work, right? That there wasn't dumb luck. Uh, it, it was, the harder you work, the luckier you get. Isn't that? Yeah, I suppose, right? And, and so, you know, the fact of the matter in the brokerage, you have to add value as, as far as I'm concerned, like, people don't hire you 'cause they like you or they like the way you look or the color of your tie, uh, or whether you're even wearing a tie, right? I mean, so the, I called this company and they said, look, uh, uh, I said, look, just gimme a chance. And they said, we have another company we've used for years, and we used them all over the country. And I said, where's that guy located? And he said, Cleveland. And I said, well, how does he know the market in California? Does he have a guy in California? Does he fly out to California? No, no, I think they call somebody. I go, who's he calling? He's like, I don't know. I said, well, there you go. I go, just gimme one deal. Let me try. I go, gimme a city, gimme any city, and I'll tell you whether I think I can save you any money. And if I cannot, I won't call you again. So they gave me a lease in San Jose, and it turns out that was at the time where the real estate markets were in the tank. They had signed a lease at the top of the market that kept going up. Yeah. And I called them back and said, look, I did some work. I think you're way over market. I think I can save you a bunch of money. Give me a chance. And so they gave me a chance, I saved them in about 60 days on renegotiating this lease and locking them in at a new lease, at a lower rate, in excess of a million bucks. Wow. And that was one location. They had 400 locations. So think about that, right? So the head of real estate went back to the c e o and took credit for, you know, the, I just saved the company a million dollars, got himself a raise and a big bonus and a promotion. And I said, good for you. How about you gimme another one? He said, not a problem. And so he gave us another one. We saved a bunch of money, and then they finally, you know, realized and said, okay, I'm just gonna give you all my business. There's no downside to this. So, so that's how we grew the brokerage business, um, by relationships and by doing good work. To, to me, in the brokerage, you're only as good as the last deal that you did, and you have to build the trust with the client. Uh, it just doesn't come overnight. And so, um, there wasn't an aha moment on the brokerage, but once we had those relationships, I said, geez, we need to grow the business and we need to have partners in other cities around the country. And once I started talking to these other business owners, they were dealing with the same problems and issues that I was. So, it, it was, it was a good natural progression. Shifting over to the multifamily side, how, how, how, how big is your portfolio now in the multifamily, uh, Property? So we have about, we have about a hundred, uh, multi-family properties throughout southern California, predominantly Warrens, Los Angeles, Riverside counties With how many units about, Uh, so, uh, in terms of tenants, we have several thousand tenants, right? Uh, and those range from families to roommates, to individuals, to all walks of life. And, and we have properties that are million dollar plus condos at the beach to bread and butter units where, you know, people are, are paying, you know, um, you know, living paycheck to paycheck and, and rent's a big portion of what they make. And so you're dealing with a lot of different dynamics, a lot of different demographics, and, and that becomes its own challenge. And certainly covid put a whole different spin on the multi-family world. Are there any multi-family deals that you look back on, you know, that's having your portfolio, that similar question where we were asking on the brokerage side that you say, Hey, that was kind of a jewel box, you know, when you remember fondly that, uh, was a stepping stone in the portfolio and other, and how about on the flip side, any that you feel like, ah, There's always, We see a probe back in the Water. You always have a favorite sun, right? Right. I mean, there's the Ones you get throw back. So, so again, the difference is with the multifamily stuff, I never really sold anything. I, I only sold, I think two buildings in the 25 years that I've been doing this. And in both instances, I sold them to buy something different or bigger or better location, right? Um, but, you know, the, um, and, and, and so it wasn't a question of this or that. Uh, there are plenty of deals that I looked at where I, I thought, gee, this wasn't a very good deal back in the day. And then, you know, you fast forward 20 years later and the property's worth, you know, uh, 10 times or five times what you could have bought it for. There's plenty of those. And in many instances, they're next door to properties that I already own, where the owner comes to me and says, Hey, do you wanna buy it? And I said, I'd love to. What's the price? And then they tell me and I start choking. And so, um, so, so there's all of that. I mean, you know, people ask me all the time, is it a good time to buy real estate, uh, with a market where it is up or down? And, and the answer is, if you're gonna hold it for 30 years, there's no bad time to buy real estate because it doesn't matter. But the dynamics of the real estate have to pencil. You cannot buy something based on future value. You cannot buy something based on rent that doesn't exist unless you're gonna figure out how to get there. And so, in many instances, we are buying properties. We were fixing them up because they had deferred maintenance, or the previous owner never really took good care of them, or didn't put any money in. And the tenants that wanted to stay and appreciated it, we kept them. And they got a much nicer property and a much nicer place. The people that were at those properties because the rent was very cheap, or they didn't care about having a nice property, they, they went someplace else and we moved on. I think the best lessons learned are, are from the, from the, you know, I don't wanna say failures, but from, you know, things that think go the way you thought. Are there any properties you bought that in retrospect, you wish you, you didn't buy or? No. I mean, uh, fortunately, you know, we've tried to buy properties in the same sort of areas. I mean, uh, we own a lot of properties out in the Coachella Valley Now. I bought one property out there and thought it was a neat idea that I would go out there and play golf and check on the property. And, and that's right. The very first day we closed on it, I went there, checked on the property and played golf in the afternoon. And I would tell you there's been no day since then that I've had time because we kept buying more stuff. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, I, I can't even visit the properties in, in a day or two. I have to, I need more time. So, uh, my, my philosophy was out the window. But, um, you know, what I would just say is that it, it, it helps to be able to add value to the property. It helps to manage the property properly. I've retired quite a number of people who bought properties that were mom and pop operators or individual property owners that at the end of the day just said, it's too much of a pain for me. I, I can't deal with the turnover or people not paying the rent or things breaking. It's, it's, it's not an easy business if you don't know what you're doing. Much More multifamily, retail, industrial. Yeah. Barry, Barry, how do you, when when you find a property, do you pay all cash? Do you finance 'em? Uh, do you have a a a special bank or mortgage banker you go to to help you with those things? How do you find Yeah, And, and that also changes with the wind and with the economy and with the lending environment, right? So it, that is absolutely a function of a point in time. So I would tell you, look, originally when I first started, I always used a mortgage broker and we shopped around for the best deal. I would tell you early on, there were a couple of banks that are no longer with us today that went under in the recession, but they used to loan a first trust deed and a second trust deed. So you could leverage up and you could get more money, or they would do structures of deals with where if you were fixing up the property, they would make you a loan and they would do a hold back for the improvements. And then once you finished it and got it stabilized, you could get more money so that you could pull your money out and go to the next deal. Then with the recession in, in 2007 to 2010, all of that went out the window and there was no interest only loans, there was no second trust deed the loan to value, which was much less, much less. And then banks that were knocking on my door that were offering to take me to lunch and dinner and ball games were gone. And, and I had banks that I had lines of credit with that they just closed them on a day's notice and said, you're just a risk, right? You're a real estate guy, you're a risk. And I'm like, I didn't do anything wrong. And so, but that's how the world changed very quickly in today's environment, you now have issues with the fact that you have lenders, again, pulling back. You have interest rates that have dramatically climbed, at least doubled, uh, and now everybody, again, is, is very careful on the lending side about how they're lending, who they're lending to and how that goes. And when you buy a property with very low rents where you're adding value to the property, then the loan, the rents are low, the property doesn't pencil, and so the loan stinks on the front end. So then you're forced to buy it for cash, forced to fix it up, and then go back to the bank at the end of the day and try and get a realistic loan. Again, I'm the guy who keeps it, I'm not the guy who flips it, right? But I want long-term debt on the property. And so I would tell you is in, in, over the course of the last 24 months, every deal we've done has been for all cash, because the loan piece of it either wasn't available or wasn't very good. Well, and especially now with the rates higher, it's, it's getting tougher and tougher to get a loan on a property might've been, I'm fascinated by the deal, deal process, Barry. I, I, you know, I think it was a jealous 'cause I wish I was able to own commercial property. So I'm fascinated by the process. So when you're buying a property, especially what you just described, and you're like, you know, so many unknowns going forward in terms of what things are gonna cost, what rents are gonna actually be, how detailed do you get with the financial analysis? Is it like i r r return on equity? Is it more of a gut feel? Like when you're putting your, you know, signing your signature, what is it you're really keying on? Yeah, And you know, I'd like to think I'm not that old or that old school, but I am, I mean, I used to back in the day, uh, go on the M l Ss, uh, there, there was no CoStar, you know, 20 years ago. And, and access to information was very limited. But I would go, I would, I, every, every Sunday I would go for bagel and cream cheese and a cup of coffee, and I would look through the LA times and I would look through the Orange County Register, and I'd look for the open houses, and I'd look for the ads, and I'd look for the guy who had a bunch of ads, and I'd call him and say, Hey, can you keep your eye out for property? Or if you are gonna get a listing on something, call me because I'm active. And that's how you build relationships and look for deals. Uh, you know, today's world, you can get all of that stuff online, uh, pretty readily. And then the question is, you know, what do you do with it? And, and how does that go? But in terms of penciling it, I would just pencil it out with a pencil and a, you know, HP calculator and try and figure out, can I do the cashflow? Now, early on, it was pretty easy for me to do that because I would pencil it based on the new rent that I knew I could get after I fixed it up. And there wasn't rent control and there wasn't, Hey, you can't evict somebody. It was pretty easy to do that if they didn't pay or you wanted them out. And I, for a long time, didn't do a deal where I got less than 10 or 15% return on my money. Cash on cash, which sounds ridiculous in today's market. Um, but I walked away from Would you do like a high analysis on rent, a low analysis? Uh, yeah, I did. I did a high and a low, right? And I'd say, Hey, here's my range. And if my range was less than zero, I wasn't doing the deal, right? Frankly, if my, if my range was less than five, I wasn't doing the deal, because then the interest rates were five or 6%, right? And, and so if I could get cashflow, because again, my philosophy was I want a cashflow, I was building cashflow, right? And, um, you, you, you don't, you don't wanna buy a property and then all of a sudden half of it's empty and you have negative cashflow. That'd be the worst thing you could do, especially for a guy in the brokerage business who goes up and down, right? So I would pencil it that way, and then I would punch in, you know, okay, after I fix it up and after I have the new rents, what do I think the property's worth? Not because I'm selling it, just because I'm trying to create some value. And so it didn't have to be worth anything other than just a little bit more than what I put into it. So if it met those two criteria, then it seemed to make sense. Now, I could tell you, I walked away from a lot of deals that I thought were too thin, that were just dumb, because, you know, hindsight's 2020, but you know, if I, if I was looking at a property at the beach at the time that was selling for 600,000, and I thought it was only worth five 50, I, I didn't do the deal. And then today that property's worth $5 million. I mean, you are in a completely different ballgame. And so I should've would've, right? Or I'd look at a property and say, this property doesn't even have air conditioning, you know, what's it gonna cost to put air conditioning in? And then in hindsight, again, it wasn't that big of a deal. So you never know to the increase, you know? Yeah. So you never know. But I would just tell you, in today's world, I still do the same thing, right? I take the marketing package and then I try to dissect it because the listing brokers package makes a bunch of assumptions that in most cases are not, right. Right. That they're not really old assumptions, You know, right now, the state of the market, I mean the, the darling right now is office, right? No. Um, you know, but the, uh, what happened with the pandemic, with the office market, the multi-family market with the, you know, rent control and all these tenants not paying rents, and that that's your source of, uh, continual income. Where do you see these sectors going? Where do you, you know, where are you looking at as far as the market, the vacancies, the rates, you know, and any other issues you see coming, especially on those two particular markets? Yeah. And, and it's funny because I ask other people that, that question all the time, as difficult as the multifamily market was during the pandemic with people not paying their rent or you couldn't evict them, and then they're still lingering effects of all of that. Plus you have rent control, plus you, you have, uh, tenants that are much wiser and that if they wanna screw you over, they can really jerk you around. And then you have really rising costs exponentially. I mean, you have utility costs of trash, for example, where, uh, on multi-family properties because of what, what the state has implemented with recycling, with organics, uh, and how that trash gets disposed of really almost 200% or more increase in the trash. You have Southern California Edison, who's had a 30 or 40% rate increase. You have the gas company that's had a hundred and something percent rate increase, everything's gone up. And so I, I feel bad for tenants that get rent increases, our own included, except when I say, Hey, I am only raising your rent 5%, and all of my expenses went up 20, 30, 40%. I mean, insurance on apartment buildings is up 40, 50%. Right? And a lot of insurance carriers are just dropping you, right? So, and that doesn't count the landscaper and the other people who, who basically tell you, Hey, I want double what I was getting before. So that's really the biggest challenge both for the office sector and for the, uh, apartment sector, is the rising costs of, uh, expenses. Combine that with the rising cost of materials, because in office market, you have to go remodel the offices and it costs an arm and a leg to go do that. In apartments, you have turnover every year. 'cause you do a one year lease and compare that against the industrial sector where you might do a five year lease with very minimal improvements, you have much less risk. And so you have to be very careful about what you're doing and, and, and how that goes. So to answer your question, where do I see the different segments going? I mean, we, we talk about that all the time here in the office, and nobody's got a crystal ball. But I would tell you this, let's break it down on the office sector. The difficulty is that whatever companies have their new model of who works out from home, who comes into the office, who does a hybrid, they've pretty much figured it out. And then now those leases are rolling. And so if the typical term of a fi of, of an office leases, let's say three or five years, over the course of that period of time, everybody's lease is gonna turn over. And they have the opportunity then to rethink their office space, the design of it, the size of it, the layout, the functionality, and the location and the price. So if between 2020, when Covid started in 2025, everybody's lease will expire. And so we are here at the, you know, middle to end of 2023, you've had a bunch of leases expire, people have moved out, they've taken different space, which is why you have increased vacancy. And there's no one there to backfill it. And, and the question then really is, what's the next thing that will fill the vacancy? We had the mortgage boom, we had the.com boom, right? We had boom with aerospace, we had boom with, with other companies that were coming into the market. Amazon took a bunch of stuff in the industrial side, biotech, right? There's nothing there today yet. I, I hope that there will be something, but there, there's gonna be more, um, just flatness in the office market and it'll be a slow creep back. And then, then as a result of that, you have landlords getting more aggressive in terms of rates and concessions because the space is sitting. Now, the flip side of it is you're not seeing this massive cratering of rental rates and you're not seeing a year of free rent and panic like you saw in the recession, or you saw, uh, in the early nineties. And, and, and part of that is a function of you have landlords that are more well healed. Also, you have landlords that their basis in the property is much less so the values have not dropped. So you don't have a landlord who says, I paid $10 million for property and it's only worth 5 million and it's half empty. I gotta get out of this. Just get me out. That, that's not there yet. And I don't think we'll get there, but the, the leasing market on the office side is soft. I don't care where you are in the country, there's room for negotiation. And so that creates opportunity for us on the brokerage side to go back and renegotiate leases that are a year or two out and be able to lock our clients in for a longer period of time and get concessions that wouldn't be available till later on today. And as a landlord, there's a benefit to just locking in the cash flow and knowing that you have a good tenant in place. So you must be Busy. I mean, you must be negotiating a, a ton of leases right now for, for tenants. So, so the, the, the flip side on the office is you have to have a company that can see somewhere into the future because the pushback on the office side is, I'm not sure where my business is going. I'm not sure how many people I'll need. I'm not sure how much space I'll need. So now you have to balance the business plan against the real estate plan, and the real estate doesn't drive the business. It's the other way around. Exactly. So we tell people, well, you have to sign as long of a lease as you feel comfortable with based on your business plan. People who signed a long-term lease five years ago at the top of the market in the office, w w w, they're, they have an opportunity to retr it. Somebody who signed a lease five years ago on the industrial market, when rates were half what they are today, if they'd signed a 10 year lease, they would be sitting pretty at this well below market rent. And, and then when you compare that against maybe your competitor who is now has to go renegotiate their lease and pay top dollar at the top of the market, you have a business competitive advantage. So the real estate is really a, a key portion for whatever business that you're in. And you've gotta try and be proactive and take advantage of it. The flip side on the end, industrial is, deals today are not more expensive than the last one. It's been like that for several years where you had 10 people vying for the same space. The space would get rented in a few days. No different than the housing market where people got used to, my house sells in three days and I have 10 offers. That also is not the case today. Right? The mar and a normal market, that's not the case anyway. It's supposed to take 60 to 90 days to sell your house. You're supposed to ask X and then you take a little bit less than X, and that's how it's supposed to work. Not I ask X and I have 10 people offering me more than X, right? So all we're doing is getting back to some sense of normalcy. And I think the industrial, you're gonna start to see that as well. You know, on, on the office side, I wanted to bring up a point. Is it, you know, I think at the panels, you know, if you saw the one you were at an Orange County, thank you for, for doing that one. It seems like a big issue is the, the strength and the financing behind the building, the strength of the landlord when you're advising tenants, is that a key element right now? Because, you know, you don't want a tenant that, you know, a, a landlord that's in limbo and can't pay your commission or the tis Yeah, I mean, and again, you're not seeing this mass sort of defaulting yet. Um, you know, there were a couple of high-rise buildings in downtown Los Angeles that went back to the bank and everybody thought, oh, the market's gonna crash because this was a big landlord to that caved the building back. I think they, they thought, uh, and, and sat down and penciled their own numbers and said, we, we can't make this work. We're better off just letting somebody else deal with it and walk away. And so the, we haven't seen it where the landlord can't afford to pay his bills. And you do have more well-heeled landlords that are not going to have those kinds of issues. A lot of the bigger buildings on the office side, you really do have, uh, much more well-heeled landlords that own these buildings that aren't gonna go under. But there's certainly a risk, both landlords, He never got outta control in most cases. Right? Right. And so, but where I, I do think that there's gonna be exposure on the landlord side is if I had a fixed five year commercial loan that I put in place in 2020, let's say, before covid, and that loan was at three and a half, four, 4%, right? That's what the rates were at the time. And I fixed it for five years, that loan rolls, and then now I go to 7%. So my mortgage almost doubles. And then also my building is not full. And then if I have to rent it, I now have to rent it at a lower rental rate than I had before. And I have to spend a bunch of money and give concessions to get somebody in the door. What we're seeing, and I just spoke to an architectural firm yesterday who basically said, our business is down because when the tenant comes in and wants a bunch of improvements, a lot of the landlords are like, look, I just let it rather let it sit. I don't wanna go gut the place for this guy because I might have to do it again. They're not really generic improvements. If the building's in good shape, why do I wanna spend a bunch of money? We have space in our building here that I own, that I just rented a few months ago, and it sat for a, a, a little bit and we had people come in and they wanted all kinds of crazy improvements, and I just said, it's not worth it, right? I'm gonna wait to find somebody that I don't mind doing some improvements, but I'm not gonna go gut the place. And, and fortunately we found somebody. So I think you're seeing a lot of that too. And all that does is it drives down the transaction volume and the volume of all the different vendors in the industry, the contractors, the architects. If they have less work, then maybe those prices start to shape up a little bit. But you still have just outta control cost of materials, right? Air conditioning, uh, you have title 24 issues where you have to upgrade buildings for lighting or for handicap accessibility and for older buildings, it's really a challenge. Well, are you Seeing into the next question, right? Yeah. Are, are you, yeah. Are you seeing a lot of change from office to housing or industrial to life science? Are you seeing a lot of that stuff? Well, it's funny that we were talking about that the other day, which is this highest and best use concept, right? So while you do have places in Los Angeles, you do have some places in Orange County and San Diego County where you have older, antiquated properties. You, you look at regional malls, right? And, and so those are an antiquated property with lots of land and lots of parking. And you're seeing those properties like the Laguna Hills Mall, like the Westminster Mall in Orange County, add other types of use, whether that's apartment or specialty retail or other things, because that really is a higher and better use. But you're also seeing antiquated office buildings that are B and C class buildings, which very, with very large parcels and lots of parking getting bought and torn down, and then they build apartments or they build industrial, because you can get much more money for that at the end of the day, but it's not widespread. But I, I look, I would tell you, if you look at industrial rents in, in, just pick Orange County, for example, if the industrial rent is a dollar 75 to $2 a square foot a month, triple net, and the net charges, if you add in all of the taxes, insurance and utilities gets you to about $3 all in per square foot, that is more rent than almost all office space in the entire Orange County, with the exception of maybe fashion Allen and Newport Beach. But, you know, you, you could rent a class office space and you, you would pay less than you would for industrials. But it is a crazy dynamic. And so that's why you're seeing some industrial get built. But there, your land constrained in Los Angeles, your land constrained in Orange County. Uh, and, and so you see pockets of that, but not widespread. We're knocking stuff down and we're gonna build, you know, where, where we can, Right. Well you, you, you answered this question halfway before, you know, that you, that you never really sell, you know, but on the buy side, uh, are there areas that you're looking at that you'd like to buy in? Or is it more things get presented to you and then you take a look at those individual properties and if, if you're looking at certain areas where, where would you look to these days that you are, are interested in? Yeah, Yeah. And so look for us, uh, our strategy is I wanna buy more stuff in the neighborhoods, in the areas that we already own stuff. Uh, because we already know the, the nature of the neighborhood and what we're getting ourselves into, and we have some economies of scale of taking care of the properties. So, so that's really what we're trying to focus on. I would tell you that in the last, you know, four or five months I've seen more deals than I saw in the last three years combined. But those deals are, have yesterday's dollar on them, right? Those sellers are still trying to capitalize on trying to get yesterday's price. And then what happens is, in many instances, and I'm generalizing, but the listing broker either tells the seller whatever they want to hear to get the listing, or the seller says, Hey, I want x I would sell if I could get X. And then the broker doesn't want to tell 'em no, 'cause he wants the listing. So he says, sure, I'll try it. And then if it doesn't sell, I'll, I'll come back and tell you we should drop the price. And so you have properties that are on the market with dynamics that don't make sense. You're in, you're in, uh, the inland Empire, orange County, LA County, yeah. San Diego County. Uh, not so much in San Diego. I mean, we do brokerage in San Diego County, but in terms of the apartments now. Alright, So a couple issues. Rent control, like in LA and Costa me right. That are starting to pass that. How about the, how about the tax in City of la? Um, well, well LA yeah, I mean, look, LA is its own ballgame period, right? And in terms of trying to raise rents or in terms of dealing with the dynamics of what you have or if you have a problem tenant, you know, how do you get rid of them? Uh, LA is a very, very difficult place. Go Buy in LA for the right thing. Well, You have to be careful. Look, here's the problem as a whole. I don't care whether it's la, orange, county, Riverside, whatever, it's very difficult to buy a property at a three and a half cap when if you were gonna get a mortgage, it would be at 7%. You are, you're not arbitraging the cap rate. You're not taking advantage of going and getting debt on the building. You're just losing money. And then the premise of buying it and raising the rent is so much more difficult in today's environment than it used to be because of all the things you mentioned. Rent control, high cost of increase of utilities, high cost of construction, high cost of getting a tenant out of there if you wanna try and remodel. And so it's a lot of heavy lifting. We know what we're doing and we can do it. The average person really can't do that or take advantage of it. And then to buy a property and raise the rent 50 bucks or a hundred bucks a month on the tenant doesn't even cover the trash, right? That got increased, right? So, so when somebody says, oh, the, the pitch used to be, oh, you could fix it up. You can raise the rents. This property's undervalued. You should pay the price based on what it's gonna be, not based on what it is today. That's also a fallacy of a dynamic of a market that doesn't hunt. And so now you have a lot more buyers that are looking at it going, look, I'll pay you a market cap rate based on what the rents that you have in place are. Because when I go to get a loan, that's all the bank's gonna lend me. And, and, and so it, it's, it's very hard for somebody who has very low rents to sell the property to somebody under the premise. You could just come in and raise the rents. You should overpay for my property. Yeah. It's like, you gotta pay. So, so for us, we're just very careful about what we're buying, right? Uh, I, I think there's some more pain. I think there's, there's operators out there that don't really know what they're doing. And I think there's a lot of people who have these interest only loans or these very low interest rates. And when those roll and you don't know what you're doing or you're not able to raise rent or your expenses are through the roof, or your insurance doubles because you had an insurance claim, these are things that people are not used to. And, and I'd like to talk to those people 'cause I think I'll make good deals with them. Yeah. So you come in with mostly cash and then refinance down the road. Yeah. So, But, But as a broker, if you have the listing right, it used to be I'll get a guy in an exchange, he doesn't care what the price is, he just doesn't wanna pay tax, right? And he just sold his property for a ridiculous amount of money to some other guy. So he doesn't really care about overpaying for the property. 'cause he knows you just made a bunch of money anyway, so over, So you look at every problem as a challenge, as as an opportunity for yourself. Uh, yeah. And, and, but in a tight market, I had to do things that we normally wouldn't do. We would put down a half a million dollar deposit and have it go refundable in two days, or non-refundable in two days. We would, you know, buy a property and, and not even look at all the units because I didn't really care. I'd see a few and I'd assume the rest were the case because you had other people behind you that were willing to do stupid things or pay more. And in order to type up the property, that's what you had to do. Now, I, I don't want the risk. I think there's more risk than reward that's out there at the moment. It's a tricky treachery path. Uh, and, and then there's not 10 other buyers. And even if there are multiple buyers, you know, I'm, I'm just not gonna buy a property based on just because somebody else, you know, offered this or that. And so you, it sounds Like you're busy looking at properties now 'cause you see op there's potential for opportunities. Opportunities, yeah. Yeah. But going forward, that's probably, you know, getting tenants, office tenants, uh, better deals and trying to find opportunities on the multifamily side. Yeah, I mean, I would say for people out there that are business owners that have a lease office or industrial, you need to be proactive looking at it in advance and try and get educated and take advantage of the market and get somebody to help you. I would say, you know, if you're a apartment tenant out there and you wanna look for a bigger, different place, you also need to, you know, be conscious of what's going on in the marketplace. Um, because there, it's, it's still very tight. And if you're an operator of apartments, you need to make sure that you're staying full and you're running a type ship. I mean, those are the challenges in today's environment. And if you have to go to the bank, whether it's you bought something or you need to refinance something or your loan is rolling, you're gonna have a lot less choices than you have before. For sure. So tell us about your radio show. How did you get started with that? And, uh, tell us where we find you and where we can hear you on that. Yeah, nobody Else. No. BSS Barry. Yes. BS Barry. Yeah. So the way that, that, right. So, so, uh, the aha moment with that one, if you will, is that, uh, we were contacted by the folks at OC Talk radio. Uh, they built a brand new radio station at the former Broadcom headquarters at U C I, uh, which is now, uh, called the Beal, uh, applied Innovation Center, which is basically a conference center, a think tank, a mini shark tank on one of the floors. And then the top floor is a radio station in a, in a studio, uh, that they built out. And their plan was to build programming throughout the day on various different aspects of people's life, whether it was investment or healthcare or insurance or real estate. And so they approached me and said, we wanna do a show on commercial real estate. Nobody really does that. They always talk about houses, you know, would you wanna do it? And I said, well, what's the deal? And they said, look, you have free reign over the topics that you can talk about. You have free reign over the guests that you can invite. And, uh, it seemed like a good opportunity. We started doing it in October of 2021. So we are coming up, October 1st will be the two year anniversary of this. Uh, we will have one, 100th episode in a couple of weeks. Wow. Congratulations. Um, and so when we started it, I had to wear a mask. They wouldn't let anybody in the building. You couldn't stand next to anybody. It was very tight deal because of the university. No food, no drinks, no nothing. Don't touch anything. Right. You needed a pass to go to the bathroom. It, it was like high school. And, um, and, and so we had some of the biggest developers and some of the biggest real estate folks come in and talk about the market. And everybody talked about, I said, what's the future hold? Right? You asked me, I asked other people, and they said, you know, it's all good. Everything's good. Everything's good for like the first six months. And then all of a sudden it started to turn, and then it was, geez, I think change is coming. And then, you know, all of a sudden, boom, you wake up and change came. And so, um, we have had a combination of, uh, politicians of, uh, business leaders of, um, business owners, um, and, and real estate developers, brokers, investors, lenders, uh, and talk about all different aspects of the commercial real estate market. And then it does tie back and forth with residential. So we have touched on it. Uh, I have a gentleman that's coming on, uh, in a couple of weeks that's running for president of the United States. Uh, and so we get all walks of life and we talk about, because it does, just like you asked me, where is the economy going is relevant to the real estate market? So if I own one property and I only care about that one particular property, then maybe what happens with the Fed meeting next week? Or maybe what happens with, uh, lending policies or maybe what happens with inflation numbers doesn't really matter in my world, but when you start talking bigger scope, it does matter. And, and so things like these bigger picture economic trends are, are things that I'm now much more focused on that maybe I wasn't before. And no one's got a crystal ball, right? But there's certain trends in the market that you have to keep an eye out on it. And it's interesting to talk to the, the politicians about whether they're promoting business or, or, or not, uh, and, and what their hot buttons are in their own individual cities of what they're dealing with, uh, on top of the business league. Speaking of that, what what are your goals for the show? And, and, and do you have interest outside, you know, what are your interests outside of real estate? Like for instance, do you have any interest in running for any office or, you know, other things like that? Yeah, I have an office. I'm not running anywhere other than to the restroom. Good answer. Um, but, um, but I, I would just tell you the goals for the show are we continue to get, um, uh, high quality people that, uh, are talking about various different things, whether it's real estate technology, which we talked about this past week, um, or, or other aspects of it. Um, so that it, it helps our viewers and our listeners to get a better perspective on what's going on. I, I enjoy doing it. Um, at, at the same time, uh, I, I think the goal, uh, at the end of the day is to make sure that it's relevant, you know, uh, topic of information. And so I've seen just from when they started, some of the other shows that they had on healthcare and other things, they just sort of ran out of things to talk about. The good news about real estate is it is ever changing. Uh, and it's So fragmented. There's always different parts of it. Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's, it's so, and We, and look, we talk retail, we talk medical, we talk, uh, student housing, we talk, we talk all different aspects of real estate And geographies as well. Yes. So, so yeah. In addition to that, I mean, we know you golf. Okay. And, uh, what other interests do you have any hobbies? What's your favorite sports team? What do you follow? Uh, well I follow, uh, I went to U C L A, so I, I follows Go Bruins. Uh, my son now goes to U S C Oh. So I follow the Trojans, uh, and, um, uh, always root for, you know, any need. The home teams, I grew up in San Diego, so I like to root for the Chargers and the Padres. Uh, in terms of sports, look, I, I, uh, used to be a tennis and a golf pro at Club Med in The Bahamas before I got into real estate. So I still enjoy, uh, playing those, both of those sports. And I'm not as good at either one of them as I once was. And that's a function of time and practice, but better than being stuck in the office. Um, How about any, uh, charities or causes, uh, that you company or, uh, He's got, I was on his website. He's got almost everyone you could think of on there. So, so, you know, look, uh, I'm a big fan of giving back. I'm a big fan of supporting charities that are important to us, that charities are important to the community. And so historically have supported a, a bunch of different charities. Uh, I've hosted charity events for U C L A with, you know, uh, Olympians and, um, uh, hall of Famers for, uh, the sports program with the John Wooden Athletic Fund. Uh, but we've also hosted events for autism, uh, and a variety of different, uh, charities and organizations that provide services, uh, and benefits to kids and families that, uh, and adults that have autism. Uh, and, uh, there are a whole host of other charities that we support in various different capacities, whether that's financially or, uh, with effort or man hours or, or other things. And so, um, we own property in a bunch of different communities. And so I like to try and get involved with some of the things, uh, that are in those communities. And that ranges from law enforcement to special needs to healthcare, uh, to military, to, to, to all walks of life. Um, and, and, um, so w we've tried to spread our wings and be able to get involved in the communities that we're in and, uh, continue to try and impress that upon the other folks that are here at the company as well. Always good to give back no matter. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we, we did promise we, we tuck you in in the time limit that we're just about up to. But I do want to, last, last kind of combined question is if, if you were starting out in the business today as a youngster, would you take the same path or would you take a different path? And someone came to you today that was, you know, not Barry, but a youngster coming into you today. Where would you advise them to take a look at starting in the commercial real estate business? Yeah, I mean, look, we do have younger folks at the firm and, and we have people coming in all the time. And then, uh, it, it's a challenge. Look, when I started there was no salary. You just worked on a hundred percent commission. I, I you mean Both, right? The right. And, and so look, I, I know what it was like. I started with, you know, a few thousand dollars in the bank and I got down to a couple hundred bucks and I was washing my own car and pressing my own shirts, and, uh, I could not go out to eat and I was making bologna sandwiches and bringing it to the office. And so I, I know what it's like to, to start from the ground up. The good news is, in today's world, I, my recommendation would be obviously you want to get in with a good firm that's gonna help you grow and help you learn and help you experience different things, um, as opposed to the trial and error method that maybe Steve, you and I did, which is I make a mistake and it's so Specialized. Now, back then, like you said, we were jack of all trades. Now you almost have to decide or, you know, get, get in a, a smaller pigeonhole in a sense in the business. Yeah. Yeah. And, and I would say, look, you, you, you don't need to be an expert in all things. You need to be good at something, and then you need to be in a platform that gives you the ability to be good at whatever it is that you're good at, right? And so find something that you're good at, whether that's being on the phone or being in front of people or running numbers or analysis. And then at the same time, you know, try and hone your skills and your practice and then do something that you enjoy. Commercial real estate's a pretty stressful, uh, you know, business. I, I don't know that I recommend it for somebody right out the gate, um, because it's, it's an all or nothing kind of a thing. You can do very well or you can do not well at all. Yeah. And, and, um, and, and that is the risk reward from it. So I, I say, you know, and when we say this on the radio show all the time, um, and the reading just for the plug on the ratio, it's called Let's Talk Real Estate with Barry Seitz, right? Uh, your Morning bss. So you can Google, uh, let's talk real estate and it'll show up. But what we always talk about on the radio show is, is you need whoever you are, you need to surround yourself with good people. You need to gather the best information that you can, whether you are buying a property, whether you are negotiating a lease, whether you're trying to work on a transaction with somebody else, and then use that information to the best of your ability, and then make sure that the people around you are adding value. And, and so, you know, we try and do that here for our clients. We try and do that for the people that work here. And I think that's a good game plan for, you know, making good deals and, and trying to be successful. Yeah. Well, you know, Barry, thank you very much. This was very enlightening, uh, really great to get to know you and a little bit more about your company. Yeah. And, uh, we, thanks for Sharing a lot of that information. I will definitely be, uh, listening to your radio show. Uh, yeah. So tune in Tuesdays at nine Live or, uh, you can go, uh, like I said, on YouTube or LinkedIn or Pod Bean or Tuesday, say, you're Talking real estate, right? Or or I would just say, Hey, go to say wi.com, S A Y W I T Z. You can look it up there. But for you guys, I, I appreciate you having me on the show. I always enjoy talking real estate and I'm happy to have the opportunity to talk about our company and, and where we've come and where we're going and, and so I appreciate it. Yeah, well thank you. I know the audience is gonna love it. We're gonna put this up on the review, you know, our new video platform that we created for the industry, and then we'll market, market it and it'll do really well, I'm sure. Yes. Thank you very much for the time in the intro. We'll get You some more, we'll get you some more listeners too at the same time. Yeah, I appreciate that. And, and for you guys, thanks for all you do and best of luck with, uh, the platform and, and your podcast and all the things that you're working on. I know you're working hard as well. We're all in this together, and we'll see you at Orange County, uh, next year. Alright? Okay. Thanks Guys. Take care. Take care. You got, You've been watching Commercial Real Estate Talk with Steven Arne, sponsored by commercial real estate inspectors, Redwood Mortgage and Paramount Property Tax Appeal.