`data/transcripts/911412212.txt`

1 lines

Hey, welcome to this new episode of Commercial Real Estate Talk with Steven Arne, where we have what we hope to be interesting and informative conversations with iconic CEO level executives from the commercial real estate industry involved in properties throughout California and the West Coast. And I'm very excited about our next guest, who is extremely active investor, redeveloper of multifamily properties throughout the West Coast and the Pacific Northwest Eddie Ring from new standard equities. But before we bring in Eddie, let's, uh, tell us about ourselves and our program. So, Arnie Garfinkle, my co-host with Allstar Group. Hey, Arnie, how you doing today? Hey, how you doing Steve? Uh, uh, doing great. Doing fantastic. Uh, I'm Arnie Garfinkel Allstar Group. We, uh, do commercial real estate lending. We're a, uh, loan broker by trade. We also consult for a number of banks, but star groups more known for producing conferences. We do the commercial real estate lending conference every April. We do other events throughout the year as well as producing the rent TV conferences. Steve, tell us about rent. When, When's your next, uh, uh, conference date? Arnie Is April 18th at the West Long Beach. We hope to see everybody there, but tell us about what's happening with Rent tv. You got one coming up before that? Yeah. I'm Steve Blum, uh, many of you know Rent tv. Uh, our 25-year-old news and media company for the commercial real estate industry. We have our news website, rent tv.com, our email newsletters, uh, and we own this video platform, the review, where you're watching this video. And we also put on events, we're doing four events that we have planned for this year. Our next one is March 21st, orange County, state of the market conference at the venue facility at the Irvine Company's Irvine Spectrum Office Park. A great venue, um, but enough about us, uh, about sponsors. I think time we, uh, tell our audience about the sponsors that make this, uh, show possible. Uh, so with that said, um, our first sponsor that I want to tell you about is, uh, commercial real estate inspectors in Southern California. Their skilled inspectors provide critically needed inspection information in easily understood terms, as well as inexpensively simple solutions. Whenever possible, let commercial real estate inspectors help you protect your deal. Call Tiffany Simington and ask for your inspection today. Uh, she's at 8 1 8 9 5 7 4 6 5 4. It's on the screen. 8 1 8 9 5 7 4 6 5 4. Who is the next sponsor, Arnie? Well, that is Fidelity Mortgage Lenders. Fidelity Mortgage is a private lending company specializing in commercial real estate. They were founded in 1971 by Chuck Shan. It is known for its unique terms, fast funding, no prepayment penalties, and long-term fixed rates. Call Uncle Chuck or John McClain at 807 5 2 9 5 3 3. That's 807 5 2 9 5 3 3. And lastly, but not least, is Paramount Property Tax Appeal. They are saving a lot of, uh, real estate owners money out there with inflation over the last couple of years, causing cap rates to increase profit margins to decrease. One way you can fight back is by appealing the property taxes. Even if you have great income, you can still qualify to have your property taxes lower. The deadline to file is November 30th, so there's still some time, but you should call them at (858) 225-1200. Ask for West Nichols at Paramount Property Tax Appeal. Okay, well, enough of us now. Let's hear from our guest. Yeah, Arnie, let's, uh, bring in our guest, Eddie Ring, founder, CEO of new standard Equities. Eddie, good morning. Thanks for joining us today. Yeah, good morning, Steve. Thanks a lot. Hey, Arnie, how you doing? Good, Good. Nice to see you. Good. Well, uh, you know, I know you're busy. I, you know, I know you've been doing a lot of, uh, interviews and, and things and, uh, busy with your, uh, properties. So thank you for the time this morning. Let's get right in it. We've got a lot to cover, a lot of things happening in the business world, but let's start with an intro about new standard equities. Tell us a bit about the company portfolio, geography, number of properties, uh, that you've got, and then, uh, we'll go from there. Sure. Love to, um, and first I should say thank you for having me on. It's always a pleasure to talk to you guys and, uh, sort of get the pulse of where other people are in this, this crazy business we're in. Um, but, uh, yeah, so I started New Standard Equities in 2010, so we're coming up really, actually, I just hit my 14 year anniversary, which is kind of shocking. Um, 'cause I don't feel, I don't feel 14 years old. But, um, um, but my, um, you know, I came out of, uh, Kennedy Wilson. So I started off at Kennedy Wilson. I that job. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I got that job, um, in while I was in business school, and I was working and learned the business, and I learned multifamily from, from those guys. And, uh, really, um, I, I, I felt like I really got my feet wet and really learned the industry, um, from everyone over there. And I'm, I'm grateful as heck for that experience. Um, but in 2010, um, you know, we were coming outta the great recession, and it was time really to do the same thing, uh, for my own account and my own investors. And that's how I got started with the mindset of let's just keep doing this thing that I actually have gotten now a, a skillset around. And let's, let's, you know, try to, try to, to see if I can build something kind of unique and, and interesting. Um, and so I took that mindset in 2010 and started really buying assets in 2011. And, um, uh, I will tell you a little bit more my, my investment thesis, et cetera, but to cut to the chase, we're now at 2024. I've got, um, uh, currently about 1900 units. Um, it's about 15 assets under management. Um, we have, um, we're fully vertically integrated, so we do our own property management, our own asset management, construction management, of course accounting. And, um, we really, uh, we really feel like we're, we're, you know, best in class right now. What's the geography? We're value add West Coast, you know, call it Denver West. But really we're Uhhuh Greater Seattle, Northern Cal and Southern Cal. And value add I cut you off. All value add. Yeah. Yeah. We, um, you know, I, it it goes to my investment philosophy. Um, I think really going back to the Kennedy Wilson days, but it's, I just love the renter by necessity category. I love the idea of buying something that can be fixed up. And I love, um, the protection that the Class B workforce type housing gives me. And, um, I've had, I've always had that mentality. I'm, uh, I'm sort of boring. I don't, I don't want to veer from that strategy. Um, it, it works for me. It works for my risk profile. And, uh, if we're operating in the West Coast, it kind of works on a supply and demand, um, you know, uh, aspect as well. Um, but we can, we can get into all that. No, No, that's fine. I, I, you know, reading in your bio, Eddie, that you were a writer, you were Yes. With WGA and, and, uh, how did you get into real estate and what attracted you to multifamily, uh, from, or did multifamily, was it from the start? So how did you transfer from being a writer on the Larry Sanders show? Is that correct? Yeah. Yes, yes to, yeah. It's, it's, it's great. Um, it's so much fun to talk about this kinda stuff. 'cause even I go, like, I kind of scratch my head sometimes. And, you know, life takes you in weird paths and weird directions at times, and then when you look back, you go, well, that wasn't so weird. Um, but, um, I grew up here in, uh, in the west, you know, in Los Angeles. And, um, my, uh, my parents, my grandparents actually, uh, had some industrial properties, just like three industrial properties and, uh, and, and a business. And I, I kind of grew up in a normal-ish environment where dad worked. And, you know, mom was PTA president and, you know, we had this business and then this, uh, uh, these industrial assets. And every once in a while I'd be going to bang on doors and collect rent from these people who weren't paying rent. You know, it was very much inculcated from the get go in that real estate space. But I didn't really consider taking it, uh, to the professional level. I just sort of thought, well, this is sort of what the family does. And, uh, instead my passion was the creative fields. And, um, I went to NYU Film school, and I wrote movies, and I wrote and directed plays in college. And ultimately, after NYUI moved back to Los Angeles, and I started working in Hollywood. And I got an agent, and I started showing my scripts around to whoever would listen. I was, at one point, I had a, a writing partner, and we were, um, it's a kind of a funny long story, but I'll make it short. Uh, we were, um, we kind of parked ourselves in some un unused offices, um, over at CBS Radford Studios. Right. Um, and it literally, we'd just park there. Nobody, everybody kind of just assumed we belonged. Nobody was in the office. And we just wrote, and then ultimately, we were hanging around the Larry Sanders show, and we were, um, getting pay paid as assistance and, and gophers. And I was a standin at one point for rip torn. I'm Uhhuh, I'm not taller than Rip was. But, um, nevertheless, that's a whole other story. But, um, I would sit there at the Larry Sanders show, um, and we would just work and I, and we kept the office doors open, and everybody's like, they would go home. All the writers are still working, and we're sitting there working with our office doors open. And we did it every single night. And eventually the writers of Larry Sanders show came in and said, what are you guys still doing here? What are you doing? We're like, oh, funny. You should ask, we're writers and we're trying to write. And, uh, they said, well, let's take a look at something you've written. And so, okay, great. And that turned into, um, an opportunity to pitch, uh, show ideas to, uh, to Gary Shandin and to the head writers at the Larry Sanders show. And ultimately, it, it resulted in a script assignment, and that resulted in, um, uh, staffing jobs on other shows. And we kind of just got rolling as writers, um, in that space, uh, comedy writers, which was just terrific. But then the industry started to change, and this was way back in, um, I don't know, early two thousands, late nineties or something like that. And all of a sudden the sitcoms left and all, they were all game shows at one point, and then they were all dramas. And then, you know, the demise of the industry. And I just kind of started panicking as I'm prone to do. Um, but I, I looked at my, I I, I had a little, I had like a 1-year-old and a 3-year-old, and I grew up, like I said, I grew up kind of, dad always worked, and mom was PTA president, and we had these industrial, I just grew up with a, a different model than unemployed writer guy, you know, and I couldn't, I just couldn't reconcile that in my head. And so I wound up not getting a job on by my agent called and said, yeah, they didn't like you, whatever. I was like, all right. To hell with this. I called up my then wife and I said, um, Hey, I gotta, I gotta go to the Anderson School at UCLA to go pick up an application. She was like, what? And I said, yeah. So I literally put the, got off the phone with the agent, got off the phone with the ex-wife, and then zipped over to the, uh, UCLA Anderson, picked up an application, sat with them, and I was like, I can do this. And I hadn't taken a math class in 15 years, but what the heck. And I, um, I sat and, um, applied to the school and it took me about, I don't know what, maybe it was a year or nine months or some crazy timing was wackadoodle. But I wound up transitioning out of writing in, into, um, business school. And then from there, um, everybody at the Anderson School, my first day was, you know, in the career center. And I was just very, very focused. And then they really wanted everybody to get super involved with the whatever club or the school or the whatever it is you're trying to. And I was like, yeah, I've got two kids at home and a wife, and, you know, I gotta, I gotta figure this life out. And, um, and they said, yeah, but you still really need to be involved with the school. And I thought about it, and I said, okay, well, how about if I, how about if I get involved with the alumni? And there happened to have been a, um, a position called Student alumni rep. And so I stood in front of the whole class and I said, look at me. I'm the age of the alumni. Who else would be better to su to represent your interests than me? And sure enough, they loved that, and, uh, voted me in, and I promise I'm getting to the end. The head of the alumni association at that time when I was the student alumni representative was actually Bob Hart, who, uh, was at Kennedy Wilson, then went off to, you know, formed America and all that. But that was how my entree to that space was with, uh, through the UCLA Anderson School and Bob, um, wow. Fortunately, Couldn't gotten a better, better entree than Bob. Couldn't Have been a better entree. I wound up learning everything I know from Bob. Um, he's still a, a good friend. We, um, you know, I, I just learned the multifamily industry at that space, and when it came time to 2010, I was fully ready to go ahead and, and do this on my own. Okay. Well, you mentioned math. Was it, was it math? Was it the creative communication skills that you already had? What was the thing that brought Yeah, so the strength That went into real estate? Well, it's great that you're asking that. 'cause I, it's not something I get to talk about a lot, but, you know, when I look back, and I kind of mentioned this, it's not such a crazy switch. On one level, it's a crazy switch. 'cause I'm a sitcom writer talking to Gary Shandin. Now I'm a, you know, real estate. But in truth, when you're a writer, you start with a blank page and you have a story to tell, and you're putting together the story of a couple characters. And ultimately there's challenges. And ultimately, you know, whatever goes through the, the machinations of your story. And at the end, I love a happy ending. So there's a happy ending. Um, and so in real estate, what I found was, oh, I'm telling a story, and the story is not about characters, but about real estate. I'm telling a story about an asset, about a building, right? Telling a story about, Hey, here's something that's been neglected, hasn't had a lot of love it. Uh, it's seeking something greater in life. You know, I'm really taking the analogy far. Yeah. But it's, it's true. And when you start to write about the story, and the story happens to be a building, and then you say, yes, and this thing that's been neglected is, is only getting, you know, um, 5% in, you know, NOI, um, and you really think that if you do X, Y, Z, you could get that to 9% and sell it at 6%, whatever it is. Yeah. That story, you start to concoct it and it starts to really kind of become alive. And so what I look for in real estate acquisitions is I look for good quality stories, and it's the same idea as when I was a writer, but it takes a creative eye to actually look at something and say, And I think those skills transcend down to your leadership skills Yes. People in your organization and who you deal with in terms of being able to tell your story. But I, I know Wendy's got the next question teed up, but before we go that go, go, go. I just wanted to follow up new standard equity. How did you get the, the name? Another good question, and then we'll get Yeah, Thank you. It's almost like, yeah. So I, um, in 2010 when, or 2009 when, um, when I was going through, when the industry was going through turmoil, if you recall, um, it was also the time of Bernie Madoff, right? Right. The time of, you know, wasn't too many years since WorldCom blew up. And a lot of, you know, and it was this Horrible, You know, horrible era where, um, accounting was not transparent, where, uh, there was discoveries of fraud in, you know, countrywide and, you know, the bad, the bad loans and all of that. And I just thought, you know what, the problem with all of this is that we have to kind of go back to an era where openness and transparency and thoughtfulness and morality is actually embraced. And, um, and I came up with the name New Standard Equities when I was on the beach in Hawaii trying to figure out what I'm supposed to do with my life. Yeah. Um, and I literally thought, I want to do something that is old school, but yet new school. And I thought the old way is with ethics and morality and the new way should look like the old way, but with a new sort of packaging. Yeah. And I literally came up with new standard equities because I wanna operate at that new standard. That Would be A good, good story behind That. And, and, and of course, that's the question I usually ask, and Steve, uh, all over it. But, you know, you know, my, my next question though is, you know, you talk about a story and, and, and all of your projects appear to have a story because, you know, we see the before and after and how you transform some of these buildings that looked old and now they're new again. Tell us about the major projects that stand out to you that you've accomplished over the years, which is the, you know, the one or two that just like, wow, you know, that's Yeah. That's really what I wanna be. Yes. I have one that is weirdly, I don't usually buy super old stuff. Mm-Hmm. But it was 20, oh gosh, I don't know, 2016, I think something like that. And I got a call from a friend, uh, a broker, broker slash principal type friend, and he said, Hey, you gotta come look at this. And it was an asset in Bremerton, Washington. Um, and it was built in the forties, and it was old military barracks. Right. And I looked at it and I flew up there, it was right around Christmas time, and there was snow and whatever ice on the ground. It was the horrible Seattle type awful version of Seattle weather. And, uh, h how'd, How'd you get, how'd you hear about the property initially? How, how, from who brought the property to your attention? It was from a, uh, a guy who was a broker, not, not one to, not one of the major brokers. He was a smaller broker and a smaller, you know, whatever. But he picked up the phone and he called me excellent. And I looked at this thing, and this was a real piece. I mean, this had every problem in the world that had old, you know, bad paint and had a bad name, and had dysfunctional, you know, aspects of the real estate. And everything about it was terrible, except for the price Uhhuh, the price was $13 million for 182 units. That's, and I just looked at it, it, and I said, and I looked around and I'm looking at this thing going, how could this be $13 million when 182 units, about about three quarters of them have views of Puget Sound. Wow. So it's on Rolling Hills. It's on a nice market. Bremerton, it's on 20 something acres. I was looking at this going like, I just, what am I missing here? That this isn't the greatest thing on the planet. Great Location, just bad, you know, Just, yeah, exactly. So I got that under contract, and I soon realized that it had also a really terrific story. And I isolated the story, and it was 1940s vintage military barracks that still kind of looked like 1940s military barracks. Yeah, I Know it well. But I decided, you know what, this isn't 1940s military barracks. This is, again, it was called Bremerton Gardens at the time. So this isn't Bremerton Gardens, this is Sea Glass Village. Ah, sea glass, sea glasses, you know, discarded bottles that get tumbled around. And, and it actually is precious gems at the end of the end of the day. And so I was like, this is what this is. And I came up with a creative logo and a paint scheme, and a, I hired a, um, artist. Right. Skills, there you go. Yeah, Exactly. To repackage Bremerton Gardens as Sea Glass Village. And, um, you know, when we encountered all kinds of things with it, you know, I learned about, about, uh, septic tanks and how things get, I mean, it was the craziest, uh, um, deal ever in operations. But after five or six years owning it, uh, we sold it for 35 and a half million dollars. Wow. Yeah. That, now, that's a story with A half million. That's a story. That's the one that I look, I think about, and I go, when is I gotta find my next sea glass? And those are the things that I really, really love. Of course, they're not all that, um, all of them aren't that dramatic, but they all carry some sort of element of that where I'm really transforming a, a piece of a piece of dirt or, or property or whatever. It's Okay. Yeah. That's a great story. And now, unfortunately, we find yes, that the be learning experiences are from the, you know, from the ones you wish you never did, or spent a lot of time and never, and never end up doing. Yeah. So, is there one that you wish you pulled the hook out of it and threw it back in the water? You know, um, just trying to think. You know, there were a couple, uh, a couple that, well, they ended well, but Wow. A lot, a lot of pain during the process, um, including some of the ones I currently own, but it's okay. Um, there was one that I, you know, what, there was a little deal in Pasadena that, um, I loved, this was a terrific little thing, and it was too small. And that was the learning. I, I apply a certain level of, uh, operational, uh, firepower. Right. And that cost money. Right. And I, this little thing had, it was 30 units, I think two retail units, 28, How long Ago This was? I bought it in 2017. Okay. And I sold it right around the right. Yeah. Maybe it was 2020 or so. When I sold it, um, I, we made a little bit of money, but, um, the, uh, the three, the, call it, the three things that I learned is if you don't have scale, um, you can't put, you can't put an army on something. Right. It's too expensive. It, it will eat you alive. So I sacrificed other assets, personnel wise, so that I can actually get these little 28 units up, up, up and running properly. Mm-Hmm. Now going in, we were literally looking at a thousand dollars lost to lease per unit because it was so under marketed and under operated. But the second piece of learning, don't ever buy something when you have brand new, uh, properties run by Greystar, you know, whatever alliance, whoever it is, as your neighbors, because, you know, I had, I was, my little asset was 30 units, but I was next door to 140 brand new units. And while we were beating them on price, they could discount their price and crush us. Yeah. Five times over. So each, each time I kind of thought about, well, what the strategy should be. I'd be, I'd say, well, I guess we could drop a rent, but, and ultimately That's a little counterintuitive. 'cause you would think being next to the big new guy that would allow you to, there would be a vacuum that would suck, you know, pull you up a Little bit. That's exactly what I thought. Yeah, that's exactly what I thought. I thought there'd be a vacuum where I would just scoop up. I could draft right behind them and live and, and, and enjoy and actually do well. Right. And ultimately, maybe that could have worked if it was 50, 60 units, maybe I could have had more in-house attention, but I had to drag somebody over. I had to plant somebody in the office. I had to do all this stuff that was not really cost effective. And then at the end of the day, if they, if you've got a big institution, they're in lease up mode, they're gonna do whatever it takes. Exactly. And you're gonna, without a doubt. So let me ask you, how do you find new projects or deals? What do you, like, you, you know, you talked about the Seattle one, but Yeah. What is your process to find something new? So I have, um, I generally have a team of, of, you know, I've got an acquisitions officer and a couple analysts, and we underwrite almost everything that comes out brokered. Um, so ev every, almost everything that we could possibly find that's on the market. Um, and then we couple that with answering random phone calls from random brokers or random principles that say they've got, you know, whatever. Um, and that's how we do it. And it's always, there's usually a broker involved somehow. Um, there's, usually it's somebody showing something. If it's off market, it's only quasi off market. We get, um, a lot of first looks at things, we get a lot of, Hey, we're going out to five people, we're going out to eight people, whatever that is. Is it a true marketing? I don't know. I mean, we're, we're chasing something right now. It's just a wonderful, wonderful deal. A repeat seller, a guy I've known for my entire time in the business. Um, you know, but there's also three other groups, uh, that he's also known, you know, for the entire time in the business. So How do you greenlight when, when you, when you see it? Do you, what, what is the thing that you, I mean, obviously you're looking for the story Yeah. But you are looking at I-R-R-R-O-I, you know, is it your gut? What, what goes into your final decision as a combination of everything? Yeah, It's A combination. A couple of that question, Andy, do you do projections, like high projection, low projection, middle, and then choose based on your gut, you know, your feel? Yeah, I mean, it's a little bit of everything, but to be honest, we are, um, we're very quantitative. We're very analytical uhhuh. And so we put everything, um, into our Excel model. Um, and because we're operators, we don't, we don't cut corners. You know, some groups are like, oh, you know, you cut the payroll. Oh, you cut the landscaping and get a cheaper made, you know, we know what it's like out there in the real world. So we're very, very, very, uh, con um, con cautious and conscience conscious of our, um, our underwriting. And we get to a number that kind of works for us on an IRR basis. It's always IRR and, uh, on a five year hold. And, um, the question I ask is, can we attract capital for this particular asset? How much have I stressed our own model? If the, if it underwrites great at say 41 million, the broker or the seller wants 44 million, how close to 44 can I get without my gut churning and vomiting? You know? And so I kind of listened to that part. And, you know, you can make anything work. That's the, the beauty of Excel. It's just you change the number and it all of a sudden looks genius. Where's that, where's that borderline? What's that IRR number? You know, I know it depends on the market probably and the property, but what's, Yeah. So like An example of a negative decision that you made because it was just not there. One, um, I, we usually can get to, uh, roughly a project level 15. Um, and sometimes that drops down, uh, into the thirteens. One, one time we were actually chasing something that our investor was driving the decision on how far to push price. And we got into the twelves, and I was super uncomfortable. I really like that at all. They had very cheap money. And they were like, no, no, we can make that work. I was like, eh, not sure. Ultimately, that one had some physical problems that the whole thing fell apart. We didn't, we didn't actually execute. But, um, the, uh, the idea that a capital partner might be saying, yeah, yeah, yeah, do this. I want to be, I wanna look at myself in the mirror every day when I wake up and go, no, no, I believe in this project. And it means that we're not cutting corners on operations, and it means we're not cutting corners on capital. Uh, it means that if it's a 15 IRR, it's a 15 IRR, the thing that annoys me more than anything is that, um, I'll show an investor a 15 or maybe a 16 Right. Or maybe an 18, and they'll beat my numbers up. And I'm like, no, you don't need to do that with, We already beat it up for you. Yeah. I've Already, I've, I'm like, Mr. Conservative, you don't need to take me down to a 13. You know, It's like, well, they all gotta feel like they gotta do their due diligence. Right? Everyone has to do their own due diligence, but I'm sure that gets less the more they invest with you after they know you A little bit. A little bit. Yeah, exactly. A little, a little bit. I mean, it's always, it's always that game. And I always tell people before they see my numbers, I'm like, look, this is very realistic. You know, but that's the, you know, who knows. Yeah. Speaking of that, I mean, you're talking about investors and everything. How do you finance the deal? Is it mostly equity? Is it debt inequity, or Debt and equity? Yeah, debt and equity. Okay. Yeah. We, we use, uh, we like to use agency, you know, Freddy Fannie, um, uh, we've traditionally been a, a floating rate borrower. Um, that's been problematic for the last two years, but, um, uh, that will probably end up coming back. Um, but, you know, we'll, we'll do fixed or floating, just depends. The floating, usually you get a better prepay if you're gonna sell it, or Yes. You know, usually it's the better exit strategy, uh, that, so that, that's the advantage of, of the float. But exactly. E every, every loan is different and every lender is different. Even even the agency stuff is changing. And what's the LTV you're seeing these days, you know, on those? Um, So a few things that we're chasing, uh, right now it's actually pretty decent. 70%, you know. Wow. 60 to 70. Yeah. I mean, this last thing I looked at, it was a five and three quarter cap going in, um, you know, financing at 70% generating a 16 IRR. Right. You know, using the same exit exit cap that I'm going in at. I, I looked at it like, this is not just normal underwriting. This is like good underwriting from the, from 20 15, 20 16 era. Yeah. And I thought, this is fine. If everybody can just sell and buy at this rate and this level, then the industry should come back pretty, pretty handily. Right. You know, the problem is so many groups bought at three caps in the, in 2021 that, you know, Well, of course. And with, with all the covid restrictions that were now coming out of, uh, how did that affect, uh, your, your decision making and, and you know, what happened there? I mean, So it was a mixed bag. Um, the, um, we wound up, fortunately on one of our biggest covid impacted, uh, buildings, um, uh, our asset in Hayward, which I just love. Um, but we had 15% non-payers. Yeah. Um, fortunately I also got a loan at 2.93% fixed in 2020. So I was able to actually secure a good loan that got us through the pandemic, through the non-paying problem. And now we've gotten most of those non-payers out, and we're backed up to 95 ish percent. And, you know, now rents need to come back a little bit. But that's one where we are, we're through the thick of it through the woods, uh, uh, in Alameda County. Um, we've a couple others in Alameda County that were troubling as well. Um, and we've, we took it on the chin, you know, we had, uh, I think portfolio wide, I, I'll bet we are owed, we're still probably out $3 million or some crazy number, like it's absolute insanity. Uh, but, you know, that's, that's the, uh, the downside of investing heavily in California is that you get some very, very, um, uh, tenant friendly laws, um, and whatnot. The upside is we don't have supply problems. Yeah, that's true. You know, we're, we're in great shape in terms of our demand. Our rents are actually going up. We actually have lease trade outs that, you know, they may be modest five to 8% or 6% or whatever, but we're not facing the great, uh, debacle in Arizona or the Sunbelt or anywhere else. You know, Orlando, I don't know where the rougher markets are, but Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The supply oversupplied markets, um, we're not facing any of those problems. Right. So, um, Yeah. And that, and that, uh, you know, since your top hit on this topic now, skip around a little bit and in terms of, uh, the, uh, the structure, but, uh, um, so where do you see rental values now? Uh, you know, heading, you know, per unit as well as, you know, values per unit, not just, you know, the rentals, but rental rates, but also, Yeah. So, you know, every, every market's slightly different. Um, we are, we were getting up in Bremerton, Washington. We were getting about 1575 to 1650 for a one bedroom apartment. We had to, yeah, we had to cut that back down though, to about four, literally 1400 or so. Um, but now we're back up to call it 1495 to 15, and our, and we're full, our units are really nice. We're fully occupied there. So, um, uh, other, other properties, um, around the portfolio, just thinking aloud, um, San Jose we're, I think our top rent post, whatever pandemic was about 3,100 for a two bedroom. We're maybe at 2,900. So we're a little bit off. Mm-Hmm. But you're talking about 2,900 for a workforce housing type property in San Jose, believe me, that, I get it. That's a lot of money. Yeah, no, Right. Um, but when you look at the rest of San Jose and you see Class A built, you know, rent is 4,500 and I'm at 29, so I'm still a price. Uh, I'm a, I'm a, you know, I compete on price. Yeah. Um, and uh, then you look at, well, what's the dynamic of the single family market? And you go, oh my gosh. You know, to get into a single family home in San Jose, you're out 7,500 bucks a month. Easy. Easy. Right, right. Easily. So now look at the difference between my rent at 2,900 and the single family alternative at at 7,500. That differential has never been as great as it is right now for our industry. Yeah. So, while we may be going through value conundrum and Oh, but the cap rate this and the cap rate that when you look at the fundamentals in each of our markets, you're, you're seeing a huge disconnect between the alternative housing, uh, for, for, for residents in our asset class and what they're actually able, hopefully able to pay. We qualify everyone at two and a half times. We're trying to get, you know, roommates to sign to two people on the dotted line and all of that stuff to protect ourselves. But at the end of the day, there's not enough housing in California, especially in our, the Bay Area markets, especially in, um, in, even in Seattle, there is just not enough construction. There's not enough housing for, for Folks. Right. So even with the issues of, you know, uh, environmental issues, the wealth tax, you know, the additional taxes, all the things that make California challenging, it, it creates opportunity. Yes. Yeah. It creates, it, it creates opportunity. And I've said that so many times to different folks who are, they throw their arms up and believe me, I'm right there. I get it. It's very frustrating. But they say, oh, no more investing in California. And they, they want to go out to other areas, but the very reason that they should stay in California is because of fundamentals, not politics. Yes. Fundamentals do, does California allow enough housing in our cities? And the answer is no. The state government has had to sue cities in order to build housing, and they're still dragging their feet. 'cause the cities still don't want the housing. And so think of the dynamic of, yeah, well, you're politically challenged because of these crazy laws, but that's no reason. If you're an investor, that's no reason to not invest. It's what happens to the supply and demand fundamentals. Everybody and their brother said, Hey, you know what we should do? We should go to Austin, Texas, where they're building, you know, 67% additional housing from what they're, they have to the number of jobs that have to be created in a place like Austin or Phoenix or um, or Atlanta or wherever. There's been huge growth and huge amount of investors and huge, you know, capital flowing in. They're now facing a real problem, um, where they're gonna have to discount rents. And once you start discounting rents, just my, like my little, my little Pasadena problem when I had the little deal, you, you, it's very hard to come back from a discounted rent, especially when the fundamentals in the market are not in your favor. You know. Now you touched, you touched on this a little bit, but tell me a little bit about the challenging places to develop or own, and where are the greater places? I mean, where do you prefer to go? Or is it whichever comes to you? Is I I go with what's, what's out there? Well, I, so for me, um, my biggest, the biggest risk factor, aside from the market fundamentals and I, I follow the knowledge economy. I'm really, I'm, I'm keen on all of that. Um, for me, it's the biggest worry is, um, is my own ignorance. So if I don't know something about a market, if I'm unsure of what those fundamentals look like, or a submarket, I tend to shy away. Um, if it's a market that I've operated in, if it's a market that I'm comfortable with, 'cause of the supply demand characteristics or the job growth opportunities, then I'm very bullish. Um, one interesting market we could talk a little bit specifically, um, the Bremerton Washington market was fascinating to me because it was driven, it's driven really fully by the military, um, which has been a very interesting dynamic. And you get ships that come in and the places fill up and the ships leave and places empty a little. Um, but it's forced me to really take a look at which military markets are safe and which ones are exposed. Um, and it happens that in Bremerton, there's a shipyard. It's the largest shipyard in the west, one of the only ones in the whole country that can take on these aircraft carriers. And it's deep water. And there's this submarine, um, uh, operation as well. So you have this incredible, uh, uh, very limited, uh, in its location, uh, sort of asset class in Bremerton. And, you know, 30 minutes gets you to downtown Seattle by ferry. Um, and so it's a very interesting dynamic, but we've seen it ebb and flow a little bit, especially, you know, I, when when I read about problems in the South China Sea, I get worried about my occupancy 'cause they're gonna send some other carrier out to the right. You know, so I get a little bit worried counter cyclically. I kind of like peace time, but with a little bit of threat, um, right. Um, but, you know, uh, it, it's kind of funny. So each market's a little different like that. Um, the Inland Empire, you know, we have these, uh, Steve, you and I talked about this last year a little bit. Um, you've got these great growth engines in Moreno Valley and Riverside, and, uh, it's a workforce housing sort of mecca out there, which is, makes it a little bit more price sensitive to things like recessions and the cost of eggs, uh, which we're experiencing right now out there. But I'm betting that that market, um, comes back. How about The city of LA And the city of la? Um, weirdly tax, I kind of got out of la, um, right. Uh, yeah, there's a lot of things with LA Yeah. You know, it's funny because I got out of it, um, But specifically the city, I mean, you'd look at some of the cities within la Right, Exactly. So, the city of LA I was in, it was one of my first, um, purchases, actually 2011. Uh, it was 20 units in, um, in Hollywood proper. It was just terrific. Uh, we did well on it. Um, but the city, I noticed even back then that, uh, LAHD was very much in our shorts and very much trying to dictate what we could spend and what we should spend and how, not just rental rates, but literally in our shorts. And I really felt bad about that. I felt like that was, um, we are here, we are doing an ethical, you know, more moral job of running quality clean apartments, but we're being treated like we're criminals. And I really didn't like that. Um, the, uh, ultimately it was very, very challenging to operate, uh, in my style. Right. And I ultimately realized that your incent, the LAHD, the LA housing department is incentivizing people to cut corners. They're incentivizing people to, well, if I can't raise the rent, I'm certainly not gonna, you know, whatever, fix the window. You know? Right. And so it, it's sort of, it's a, it's a fun, dysfunctional kind of partnership. And I just didn't want to be a part of that. So I shied away from anything in LA City proper. But you asked Yes. Out outlet, outlying areas. Wow. I saw something just a couple weeks ago. I loved it so much. Westlake Village saw something in Thousand Oaks. Oh my gosh. Sure. That's my backyard. Right? Yeah. Really. Like I looked at it and I was like, Communities, Unbelievably good Supply. Right. All of The, all the buzz, all the fundamental buzzwords. I was like, this is fantastic. The only problem was about five other people realized that it was fantastic. Yeah, yeah. Valley man, right? Yeah, exactly. So I, you know, it's, it's fine. But, um, yeah, there are areas, Ventura County is incredible. I wish investors really understood what Ventura was all about. Right. Um, you have areas like, um, yeah, like the ie, the Inland Empire. I mean, there are some great, great assets out in Riverside. It's just a, Well, you just mentioned investors, so I wanna shift gears a little bit and then ar Arne, I'll have a follow up. But the equity part of your deals, uh, where's that come from? Is that, you know, new standard money and then you get investors for each deal Yes. Separately and form a different partnership for each transaction. How is, where's the equity come from and, you know, how does you know guys like me and Arne, you know, where can we, uh, you know, take part? Yeah. Well, first of all, yes, the answer is yes. 'cause I do everything. But we do, um, one-off joint ventures, uh, with largely institutional partners. Sometimes it's syndications, uh, sometimes it's, um, uh, you know, a combination where I could have an institutional partner for 80% of the, um, financing on the equity. And then on the 20% piece, I'll syndicate that to friends and family or, you know. Right. High net worth especially, you have A thing on your website to register. Yes. And everybody's welcome to do that. I welcome new investors. Um, we're always looking to, um, you know, to, to raise cash to, uh, buy, maybe replace some investors and current deals. Um, we have, if, if there's a new thing that pops up, we have, um, a small stable of institutional investors that are still looking and interested. And I got an email blast today from one of our investors. They've got 250 mil of dry powder for 2024. So I was like, okay, that's good. That's a good start. 'cause the last two years, the institutional money has been largely on the sidelines. Um, so we, we go to, um, that type of equity source family offices sometimes. Um, it's, it's really, it kind of depends. Um, we're talking about maybe doing something, um, different structurally, but that's, you know, TBD later on this year. Um, but I, you know, I feel pretty good about where we are. Um, I really think that this year should be, um, a good buying year. Um, and I, I hope to be able to deploy, uh, you know, uh, syndicated equity, um, you know, call it raise, raise between five and 15 million on every deal. So what are, what are, What do you see as the major challenges right now on, on transactions, Um, opportunities? Uh, there's been a lot of people, um, it's funny 'cause the same thing that's, there's a lot in the news about how single family homes, especially in Southern Cal, haven't really dropped. Right. Um, in price, despite the higher interest rates. And, you know, it's just counterintuitive, but when you realize that everybody and their brother refinanced at 3% or 2% or four, whatever that is, why would they get outta that loan unless they had to? So the same thing exists today, um, in a different way, but in the multifamily space, everybody financed these things a couple years ago and the values aren't there, so why would they sell? Um, so the question is, is how are they gonna be forced to sell? Or has enough time gone by where you bought something in 2021 and you've moved rents 15, 20, 30%, and the values may be 15 to 30% lower, but you can still get out and redeploy that equity elsewhere. I think those opportunities are gonna be coming back. The one thing that I've been chasing in the last couple of days, the seller is gonna take probably a little bit of a loss, but they're gonna redeploy that cash and buy something that they could never have bought, you know, at the price, Price points, You know? Yeah. Right. You know, what, what town, what city is that in? That's northern county in Yeah, yeah, yeah. Spin Him down. He's negotiating. He doesn't, Hey, you know, get what I can. I gotta ask the question, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But speaking of your investors, Eddie, so, um, do you, uh, on the exit side, a co on the exit side, um, when do you sell and why? And are you also looking at refinancing any properties right now? Yes, I am looking at refinancing something right now. I'm looking at actually raising some preferred equity, probably. Um, I've got an asset that I just love. Fantastic story. Um, and it is, um, and it's in a great market in, in, in, uh, in a market near the Seattle, um, near ctac Mm-Hmm. In that market. And it's just fantastic. It's been, we've been getting three, $400 rent lifts. Our loan is coming due in August, and I'd love to get that one off to the races with a new loan and some fresh equity and run that thing through its cycle. We had, um, on that one in particular was very, very impacted by Covid. I had, yeah. Out of, uh, 80 units, I had 10 people or 12 people not paying rent for three years. Yeah, yeah. No, that's, that's awesome. You can't, yeah. You cannot survive that. So we finally got them out. Um, we're down to the last two, I think, an eviction, and we are, uh, re we've renovated, um, and we've, we're re letting those units and, and that's gonna be a good story. So that's one that I'm keenly focused on, um, in terms of, uh, in terms of a refi and hold. Right. Uh, certain other things, it may be time to sell, dictated sometimes by our partners. Um, but, you know, if we can, um, if we can make a profit and, uh, and it's a good profit relative to other things, then we'll sell. Perfect. Excellent. You know? Yeah. So let, I, I know you like a story. We're gonna go back to that and, and looking at yourself, how involved are you in the architecture and construction, uh, of these things? Because I know you've got the vision, uh, although I'm sure you have a team, but Yeah. Tell, tell me what goes through your mind when you we're looking at a project and say Yeah. So I can, I can tell you two different, th I've kind of described the sea glass thing, but, but the, um, but really interestingly, um, both the thing that I'm gonna start raising some cash for, um, it's called Majestic Bay up in, uh, demo in Washington. Um, that was really ugly when we first bought it. And it had this basketball court out in front and a old beat up lawn with maybe a really junky, like kids like, you know, slide or, you know, yeah. Seesaw or something like that. And it was just awful. And I'm staring at this thing going, why isn't this the leasing office and fitness center? And so from ground up, I looked at it and said, guys, this is what we need to do. We need to build a standalone leasing center with a little office, a little, um, workout center, a little fitness center bathroom. Because when, uh, when moms come to the site to lease an apartment and they've got a little kid in tow, the first thing they say is, can we use your restroom? Yeah. Well, if you don't have a restroom, it's true. You've lost your lease. You know, so, you know, have a nice little space for, and I say moms, yeah. Not out of misogyny, but No, no, no. Studies have shown that it's the women that are making the major decisions and uh, and leasing. And so, um, a lot of times that actually drives, uh, my decision making. It's like, well, how can we make it more comfortable for a prospect? And, uh, while I enjoy good architecture, I'm not an architect. While I enjoy good designing, I'm not a designer, so I hire people that have those expertise. I'm a bit of a vision person. So when something looks similar to what I had in my head, I like it. When it looks something is amiss, I'm the first one to say, I don't really like it. I don't like what it, the color scheme, the angles of the building, whatever it is, I feel ooky about it. And I kind of, I, I kind of, I, I don't know. I can't verbalize it, but I can, I'll tell an architect, I want it to be warmer. What does that mean? You know, tell a designer, I don't, it feels Too cold. Annie, I think you gave yourself, I think you're selling yourself short a little bit. 'cause I think you did verbalize it when you came up with that phrase just right. Living. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Well, that, that's true actually. Um, you know, I can't let you get away without bringing that phrase. Yeah, no, I, I'm happy to talk about just Right. Living. Um, yeah, it's funny, and I'll talk one more little thing about, um, the leasing centers. So, um, it wasn't even part of our business plan, but I was, I was pro project in Castro Valley, California, which is, um, east Bay. And I just love this thing and we've cleaned it up and we've made it better, and we're getting the rents and everything is going really swimmingly. And, um, the leasing office is this weird, narrow triangle. And every single time I walk into that office, I kind of want to vomit a little 'cause it feels horrible. And I'm, I, by the way, I'm not good on boats. I get seasick. So I'm very sensitive to that kind of dynamic. But you're right, the leasing office makes such an impression. It Makes a huge impression. So I, so I hired, so I had my head of construction, go to the architect, go to the city, go to everybody, and we've now figured out a way to straighten out the walls, expand the thing, have a little arch, you know, kind of, um, roof line and adding a bathroom. And, um, while we're just now breaking ground on it, it's another one of those I hope to be success stories where I've had an looky feeling in my gut and I'm executing to cure that. Um, now just right living. All right, so just Right living is a, um, it's kind of a slogan that we've, uh, we came up with. Um, it's important to say we're, um, it just kind of fit. Um, because of the kinds of things that we do. We, we want the win-win and call it win, win-win, you know, uh, just right living is all about you give the resident what they're looking for, what they're willing to pay for, and if you can meet the, meet the inflection point of what a resident's willing to pay for and what an investor's willing to invest. And if you can meet that perfectly, you've maximized your IRR. And when you've ma and then it's ev it's a win-win. So that's what I'm trying to go for and win-win win. If you think of employees as part of the equation, it's a great Ex, it's a great phrase. Thank you. Yeah. So when you end up over improving something and the resident is not willing to pay, then you kind of get this dynamic, you know, when you've, and that's, that's bad for the IRR. And then similarly, if you under improve the resident this whole time was willing to pay up here and you're like lagging down here when you go to sell, that's sometimes, uh, sometimes those, oh, investor will pay for that upside, but sometimes they only pay for this much of that upside. Yeah. So you're leaving something on the table. I'd rather say, you know what, let's try to meet that inflection point as close as humanly possible, where a dollar spent is some x dollar better in rent. And, uh, and try to match the, uh, match the math. And, uh, I try to do that all the time. Alright. Let, let's get back to you a little bit. I know you, you went to UCLA and UC Berkeley. Yep. On Saturday. Who do you root for? The Bears or the Bruins? I, that's a tough one, but I gotta go with the, I gotta go with the cow bears. Um, it's, it's very, you know, it's just, it's just works out. Um, and it's funny because, um, my, I have a son that, uh, went to University of Washington. Okay. And so I'm also a Husky fan. Oh, you gotta be happy this year. Yeah. So I went to Oregon. We're not very happy with that. Come on. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's, it's a little challenging at times. Yeah. I went to Florida State, so if anybody has, if anybody has a right not to be happy, it's me. I went to Florida, we got shut out. That's true. That's true. That's true. But it's very funny. So I actually, um, yeah, but it's, yeah, boy, on Saturdays that, um, I used to go to the games UCLA Cal Games, uh, and I'd literally be wearing two shirts and I'd be like, yeah, go Bears. And then about, uh, about halfway through the game, I'm like, alright, okay, fine. You went, Did you play any sports? Are you kidding? Look at me. No, I didn't play. Can't judge. No. That, that, that, that's my answer usually when somebody asks me. Yeah. I know. Alright, uh, a, a serious question. You know, uh, someone starting out in the business, so let's say guy coming outta Washington comes, you says, you know, where should I go? What, what part of the business do you think has upside for a young person coming into it now? Brokerage property management. On the flip side, if you were entering the business now, where would you go knowing what you know now? Um, great questions. What I think I would tell, and I've had, um, I've given internships to people and all kinds of stuff, and I'm a big supporter and a fan of people learning. Um, I, I look at my experience I had at Kennedy Wilson, um, with Bob and I, and I want to give that back to somebody else. And I've done that a few times. Um, I've taken on MBA interns, I've taken on undergrad interns. I've, I've hired folks out of business school and, um, depends on their skillset, um, and, and where they want to be. And I think, um, you know, if somebody is mathematically inclined and they're, they know their way around a spreadsheet and can think out of the box, um, then acquisitions, uh, analyst for a mortgage broker, analyst for a, um, an equity shop. Um, I think those are great jobs, right? Um, if somebody is more people oriented, um, I really can't say enough about property management. It's, uh, while it's a headache, but it is, uh, What's not that's worthwhile. Worthwhile? Well, no, it's people skills. Yes. Very, The people skills. I've seen it time and time again. Yeah. Where if you have people skills and you can sell and you can be sweet and you can collect rent with a smile, and you can deal with some of the challenges of being, you know, the leader at somebody's home effectively, um, then property management is a great avenue to get into this space. Yeah. I've got, um, one of my, um, high quality, um, managers is, um, she, uh, is, he's a, um, very young man who I spoke with, uh, when I went and met him and he said, yeah, my, my parents are actually, um, in the business that are, he's a mortgage dad's a mortgage broker, or something like that. And, uh, um, I am looking to learn the business. I said, you know what, you've picked a great, great place to start. Because if you can start, even if you want to be on the finance side or the acquisition side or whatever, if you can start in property management, you have a leg up. You understand what people are going through, you understand their willingness to pay, you understand what other, uh, pain points the residents may have, and you can tell the things that are very simple to fix. If you can take somebody's package to them, that might mean all the, all the tea in China, you know, if you can supply them with a secure apartment, that might be the thing that they really are looking for. Um, if you can give them a nice clean fitness center, they don't have to join a gym as a young property manager, you can start to put those sort of, uh, fundamental things together and really think about how you can be impactful in somebody else's life. And I think that's a very, very Yeah. And that's such a great ladder of success. We know so many people that started out at the very low end and worked their way up and become senior executives. That's right. Out of the people at my company, I've got a number of folks who started off leasing apartments, and, you know, I've got head of asset management right now is in that. Is is somebody like that. And, you know, if you can get somebody to from starting at the bottom to some near the top, I think that's a, uh, it's a wonderful thing to do for somebody and to watch that as a, as a professional to watch and foster that growth, there's no greater joy. So let's talk about your, let's wrap it up with some, something with your personal goals for the future and what you do. You do a lot for your employees and, and interns and everything else, but what kind of charities and hobbies do you have in addition to that? Yeah, that'd be a great way to end this and charity We can highlight for you while you're here. That Yeah. That, that would be terrific. Um, I actually have, uh, uh, my goals, just to kind of step back, my goals for the company are, are to, um, acquire and build up to 5,000 units. Um, uh, it could go higher, but right now, that's my five year goal. And you're just under 2000 now, if I remember Right. Yeah. I'm under 2000. I'll have to sell five, 600 or whatever maybe, and hopefully buy another thousand, you know, and, you know, over, over the next couple of years, I think that that's a viable plan. Um, and so I'll need equity for that. Um, and I'll need to keep the team together for all of that. Um, mm-Hmm. And in the interim, I'm, I, um, I started, uh, I, I've always been a philanthropic kind of person, um, and it's always been a life goal of mine to be able to, uh, make an impact on other people. And, uh, the two, uh, charitable organizations that I'm actually, um, uh, a part of, I've, I joined the board of, uh, uh, directors on, on, uh, the Center Theater Group, which is here in Los Angeles. We, we run the Ahmanson Theater and mm-Hmm. Kirk Douglas Theater and the Mark Taper form. And we really try to do inclusive programming. We really try to do, um, diverse programming. Um, the theater world is going through a lot of challenges right now. Right. Um, it's a that's A perfect combination with your historical skill sets, huh? Yeah, it's, it's an actual, it's my first love, right. And I really, really enjoy being a part of it. Um, I'm friends with the executive director and I'm friends with the artistic director, and it's an opportunity for me to really zero in on the artistic, um, community and Right. How we can actually foster the arts. Um, just a quick primer back in the Greek, uh, Greek days, the ancient Greece, um, you know, theater experience was actually the only way that, that the, that the moral fiber of the Greek culture could be conveyed. And that was through the theater. The theater was the church. And, um, that's how they taught morality to their constituencies. And it was a, a big exploration in what's the right thing, what's the wrong thing? And it all came through theater. We've lost a lot of that, that's for sure. Uh, and we've, yeah, we've replaced that message with, you know, bad movies, social media, horrible television programs and all that, right? And now, and, and some of our moral, uh, sort of, uh, standards have perhaps been challenged. So I really do like the idea of getting back to communal experiences that explore the humanity of our morality. And, uh, that's what the Center Theater Group does for us. Um, excellent. And then, uh, the other, um, other charitable organization that I've become involved with is, uh, it's called the Children's Bureau. Uh, it's, uh, the, we're gonna go through a name change, um, because that's very old sounding. It's actually one of the third, uh, third or fourth, uh, names. It's had, it's actually an organization that's been around since, um, the early 19 hundreds, like 1905 or eight or 1910 or something like that. And, um, it is it, the primary mission of the Children's Bureau is to prevent child abuse. And the reason that that's a challenge is that we're trying to stop something from happening. And the entire mission of that organization, it's some 500 people strong, and we operate with a 50 something million dollars budget. And we are one of the, uh, really one of the country's foremost, uh, authorities and pro, um, uh, uh, provider of services, uh, to low income families in need, um, in noun, uh, Los Angeles and Orange County. And, uh, now we have a facility up in, up in the Lancaster Palmdale area, and it is a very, very highly respected organization. And I can't think of another impactful way of spending a dollar, and that is to try to stop a kid from being abused Children Children's Bureau, but name's about to Change. But Children's Bureau, the name is about to change, but we're doing a gala this year. Uh, we're doing, actually, we're doing a gala for c uh, center Theater Group too, but we're doing a gala for the Children's Bureau. There's a golf tournament that I've all, I've traditionally been, uh, helping to sponsor. And, uh, it's really a terrific, uh, organization, so. Excellent, excellent. Well, I, I, Betty, you know, we should we keep it within about an hour? We're right about there. Right there. Yeah. So, uh, we, we learn a lot about you and your background and, and, uh, and about your company, which is fantastic. That's why we love doing these things. We get to find out a little bit more, uh, about the person behind the company and, and where it's going. And, uh, that's the whole purpose of CRE talk. And I think the audience will find it very, uh, enlightening. Yes. Educational and inspiring in many ways, and entertaining. Thank you very much for the time. Entertaining too. Yeah. I hope to be entertaining and I love it. It was great having you. Thank you. New standard equities. Thank you very much. Thank you much. And, uh, you know, good luck with the deals you're closing, refinancing, and, uh, you know, getting to 5,000 units. Great, Thanks. Thank you. You've been watching Commercial Real Estate Talk with Stephen Arne, sponsored by commercial real estate inspectors, fidelity Mortgage Lenders, and Paramount Property Tax Appeal.